View Full Version : Behind the myth that affirmative action is hurting white prospects
MyDraadloos
07-04-2006, 09:34 AM
I question the quality of her data ...... lies, damn lies and statistics.
http://www.businessday.co.za/articles/topstories.aspx?ID=BD4A182739
IT SEEMS that some circles cling to the belief that affirmative action has devastated the prospects for young white people and — to a lesser extent — coloured people.
Yet however much some people cherish this perception, the data show it is simply wrong.
Even if we take skills and age into account, unemployment remains highest among Africans, especially African women. Management in the private sector is still heavily dominated by whites with remarkably little change in representivity since the mid-1990s. And the poverty rate for whites is a fraction of the rate for the rest of the population.
The figures on joblessness demonstrate that non-Africans still have first claim on most jobs. In September 2004, unemployment ran at 46% for Africans under 30 years old. In contrast, it was 30% for coloureds and Asians in that age group, and 10% for white youth. Among African women under 30 years old, three out of four were unemployed.
Some of the discrepancy reflects differences in education. But significant differences remain even if we look at people with the same educational achievements. Thus, one out of 10 African university graduates under 30 was unemployed in September 2004. The figure was under one in 20 for other groups. In short, it is clear that the inherited racial hierarchy still largely determines who will get a job.
Even if they found employment, Africans were less likely than whites to hold powerful positions. In 2004, Africans constituted two-thirds of all employed people while whites made up a seventh. But Africans held just 14% of senior management positions in the private sector not counting the self-employed. Coloureds and Asians contributed 17% and whites 54%. Compared with data in the October household survey, representivity among private-sector managers had worsened slightly since 1996.
Even in the public sector, senior management was far from representative. The public sector accounted for about a fifth of all employees. Africans held 47% of senior management positions, coloureds 15%, and whites 39%. In other words, whites were over-represented by a factor of two.
As might be expected, the relegation of black people to lower levels in employment was reflected in the distribution of incomes. In 2004 only 7% of whites earned less than R1500 a month compared with 61% of Africans and 31% of coloureds. Meanwhile, Africans accounted for only a fifth of the top 5% of income earners, while whites made up nearly three-quarters. True, the situation was better than in 1996, when Africans constituted just a seventh of the high-income group. But the change was hardly overwhelming.
Perhaps the most disconcerting facet of persistent racial inequality relates to tertiary education. A university degree often forms a prerequisite for economic and social power. Yet in the early 2000s, Africans made up just more than half of all university students and less than half of students in historically white institutions. Meanwhile, whites made up a third of all university students, and two-fifths of those in the privileged schools.
True, lower levels of education contributed to worse economic prospects for Africans. But educational discrepancies should not be blown out of proportion. According to the September 2004 Labour Force Survey, Africans accounted for two- fifths of university graduates, about the same proportion as whites. The average African under 30 years old had about 10,5 years of formal education, compared with 11 years for the average coloured youth and 12 years for the average white. Given these data, why does the myth persist that affirmative action has had a tremendous effect?
One factor is that some individuals view the loss of privilege, not as a requirement for equality, but as a loss of entitlements. They resent the fact that they can no longer count on an assured career with the competition suppressed by law.
A second explanation lies in high unemployment itself, and especially the job losses of the late 1990s. It is fatally easy for some workers to blame ethnicity for the shortage of jobs, rather than the economic shifts associated with downsizing in the public sector and tariff reductions.
Ultimately, the only solution is to reduce the unemployment rate to well below the current crisis levels. No one wins if every group seeks only to increase opportunities for itself while a third of the labour force remains excluded from the economy.
‖Makgetla is a Congress of South African Trade Unions economist.
Hulle moet gaan k@k praat op 'n ander plek. Ask the small white owned bussinesses that cannot get contracts because they are not BEE/AA compliant ask the many farthers with post school kids that cannot get work as they are the wrong race (on entry job levels is the place where most large company's push up the BEE/AA compliance numbers)
kaspaas
07-04-2006, 10:22 AM
It is true: Managers still tend to be white males.
But the article did not have a look at clerks and other junior positions.
Have a look in the vacancy adverts, and see how many says AA only...
jabulani
07-04-2006, 11:11 AM
This is just drivel with non-sequitur conclusions drawn from the facts quoted. I can find nothing in the figures stated that is inconsistent with many qualified experienced whites now finding themselves out of work and unable to get back into employment.
And to those who ( as in other threads ) would deny that AA has a negative effect on white employment prospects I ask - Have you been there? If not please shut up.
:mad:
Well look at sport as an example as most of it is professional and therefore a job
Clyde Rathbone, Kevin Pieterson, Mat Stevens - all claim to have departed because of quotas - however if you look at the repsective National teams - its whities keeping them out of a job !
Moederloos
07-04-2006, 12:08 PM
And to those who ( as in other threads ) would deny that AA has a negative effect on white employment prospects I ask - Have you been there? If not please shut up.
:mad:
What a load of drivel - you mean to win an argument by denying those with alternative view points a chance to debate?
I am a white male, early 30's. I can safely say AA has not affected me in the least.
Just recently, I was given the opportunity to become a director at my company.
So, if some people are affected negatively, it certainly does not mean all people.
ghoti
07-04-2006, 01:46 PM
Thats' BS!!!!
Explain to me how you appoint Ashwell Prince as Vice-Captain for the Cricket team?
Is there a quota system in sport? uuhm YES. That means that even though you are much better than a darkie, you stand a chance of not being selected.
Cause Graham Smith sucks? ;)
Let me tell you guys a little story. At one of Golden Arrow's divisions a position opens up for chief division engineer.
Because of union pressures the company is forced too allow their own staff to apply for the position and get first choice.
The some of the current foreman applies for the position and gets into a interview and eventually 4 of them get into a 2nd interview.
So, who gets hired you ask? Well the assistant shop steward, the one that didn’t even go for a interview.
Now ask yourself, isn't this bad? This is the type of behaviour BEE and AA encourages companies too do, fill quotas. Or if you'd like a more extreme pov. put idiots into positions of power so they can fkuck up.
jabulani
07-04-2006, 02:15 PM
What a load of drivel - you mean to win an argument by denying those with alternative view points a chance to debate?
I am a white male, early 30's. I can safely say AA has not affected me in the least.
Just recently, I was given the opportunity to become a director at my company.
So, if some people are affected negatively, it certainly does not mean all people.
Yours is the drivel I think. No one was saying it had affected ALL - what sort of silly conclusion is that? But it HAS affected many. Your attitude is just "I'm all right Jack!".
And I'm not trying to "win an argument", just prevent those who have not been touched by this from pontificating. You know - like when apartheid ruled the land and the Nats knew what blacks "really" needed and felt. What I am saying is that if it has not affected you or those you know, you have little credibility. Like you it seems.
:eek:
Congrats on being a "director". Whoopee. Better go read up on fiduciary responsibilities now.
:p
kilo39
07-04-2006, 02:21 PM
Another apartheid government - gee, what we really needed!
MyDraadloos
07-04-2006, 03:07 PM
/me puts away jerry can to ensure that I don't put more fuel on the fire ....
All of history's great mistakes start off as seemingly great ideas i.e. Slavery, Democracy, Communism, Concentration Camps, Apartheid, Affirmative Action.
Reading through this thread, I think the one thing that everybody can agree on is that there is, at the very least, a perception among a large number of whites (and to a certain extent the coloured and indian populations) that AA is harming (a) their chances of obtaining employment and/or (b) their chances of advancement within a particular job.
At this point I would then argue that perception equals reality, because if said people perceive they are being persecuted then that is reality to them. The governments job, in my opinion, is to knock this perception on the head, and calling their perception a myth does nothing to dispel it.
That being said, the government had to do something to redress the balance left by the legacy of apartheid, and in my opinion their only option was AA, however with AA now firmly in place questions such as these will start to be asked.:
"At what point will AA no longer be required?"
"When will AA no longer be required?"
"What criteria have to be met to signal the end of AA?"
People have to be able to plan (to a certain degree) for their future, if their perception causes that future to look, at best, rocky, then they will begin to look elsewhere to make that future happen.
A sunset clause in AA would satisfy everyone, it would give the black population something to judge their government on and it would give the white, coloured and indian populations the answers they require.
Reading through this thread, I think the one thing that everybody can agree on is that there is, at the very least, a perception among a large number of whites (and to a certain extent the coloured and indian populations) that AA is harming (a) their chances of obtaining employment and/or (b) their chances of advancement within a particular job.
At this point I would then argue that perception equals reality, because if said people perceive they are being persecuted then that is reality to them. The governments job, in my opinion, is to knock this perception on the head, and calling their perception a myth does nothing to dispel it.
That being said, the government had to do something to redress the balance left by the legacy of apartheid, and in my opinion their only option was AA, however with AA now firmly in place questions such as these will start to be asked.:
"At what point will AA no longer be required?"
"When will AA no longer be required?"
"What criteria have to be met to signal the end of AA?"
People have to be able to plan (to a certain degree) for their future, if their perception causes that future to look, at best, rocky, then they will begin to look elsewhere to make that future happen.
A sunset clause in AA would satisfy everyone, it would give the black population something to judge their government on and it would give the white, coloured and indian populations the answers they require.
A sunset clause is already in place, can you not see Africa descending into darkness again....:D :D
AcidRaZor
07-04-2006, 03:41 PM
10% of 50000 is what? 500?
So those of you agree that 10% of 5000000 is alot more than 10% of 50000 for instance?
And of course, if there were the same number of whites in the country that are blacks/coloured and indian people, the utter crap this lady spoke would have had half a chance of surviving a debate about affirmative action hurting or not hurting "whites"
Things are changing, tough, deal with it. I do, but what pisses me off completely is people who can't get over their own damn issues about what happend in the past.
Trust me, if you harbour on what happend in your life, you can't move forward. Plus the fact that I can now just take an anti-aids shower.... you be the judge on where this country is headed.
Kalvaer
07-04-2006, 04:16 PM
Even if they found employment, Africans were less likely than whites to hold powerful positions. In 2004, Africans constituted two-thirds of all employed people while whites made up a seventh. But Africans held just 14% of senior management positions in the private sector not counting the self-employed. Coloureds and Asians contributed 17% and whites 54%. Compared with data in the October household survey, representivity among private-sector managers had worsened slightly since 1996. That just seems to tell me that most companies realised that apointing somebody into a position because of skin colour was a big mistake as they made huge loses with people sitting on their asses all day. Driving their new AA BMW's and not doing any work..
People are not fired because of Colour.. they are given jobs because of this however. They are fired though for not doing any work!
arf9999
07-04-2006, 04:21 PM
It is very insulting to call someone a racist. It borders on hate speech. Please don't do it mate. Thanks :)
He can't see your post, 'cos you're on his ignore list :D
Every white cloud has a dark lining. he he, or is it the other way?
Just recently, I was given the opportunity to become a director at my company.
So, if some people are affected negatively, it certainly does not mean all people.
Well, in your new-found good fortune spare a thought for the "some" you mention.
:eek:
Well, in your new-found good fortune spare a thought for the "some" you mention.
:eek:
Yes and most of the"some"CAN DO THE JOB" while those that "get"the job can not, FREAKS
hj2k_x
07-04-2006, 06:22 PM
Well, in your new-found good fortune spare a thought for the "some" you mention.
:eek:
yes dude, 'some' is actually a whole lot of people so dont just dismiss them like they dont matter just because you somehow have managed not to be burnt by AA.
Gunny
07-04-2006, 06:54 PM
Reading through this thread, I think the one thing that everybody can agree on is that there is, at the very least, a perception among a large number of whites (and to a certain extent the coloured and indian populations) that AA is harming (a) their chances of obtaining employment and/or (b) their chances of advancement within a particular job.
At this point I would then argue that perception equals reality, because if said people perceive they are being persecuted then that is reality to them. The governments job, in my opinion, is to knock this perception on the head, and calling their perception a myth does nothing to dispel it.
That being said, the government had to do something to redress the balance left by the legacy of apartheid, and in my opinion their only option was AA, however with AA now firmly in place questions such as these will start to be asked.:
"At what point will AA no longer be required?"
"When will AA no longer be required?"
"What criteria have to be met to signal the end of AA?"
People have to be able to plan (to a certain degree) for their future, if their perception causes that future to look, at best, rocky, then they will begin to look elsewhere to make that future happen.
A sunset clause in AA would satisfy everyone, it would give the black population something to judge their government on and it would give the white, coloured and indian populations the answers they require.
Lets think about this.
70% of the population hold on to the hope of AA benifiting them now add a sunset clause...... 70% of the population up in arms.
Will govenment do it? I dnt think so...
What a load of drivel - you mean to win an argument by denying those with alternative view points a chance to debate?
I am a white male, early 30's. I can safely say AA has not affected me in the least.
Just recently, I was given the opportunity to become a director at my company.
So, if some people are affected negatively, it certainly does not mean all people.
Yeah read some of the posts again. Nobody stated all people! The biggest problem lies with the new job seekers, lower positions and small bussiness, not with CEO's, MD's, larges corporates and the rich! You are lucky! so say thanks for the blessings and think of those not in your position, there is many more on the other side of the scale with first hand experience!.
.........Things are changing, tough, deal with it. I do, but what pisses me off completely is people who can't get over their own damn issues about what happend in the past.
Trust me, if you harbour on what happend in your life, you can't move forward. .............
Thats the whole point. It is not the past, it is the here and the now and the future, our kids futures, we and them are now denied certain progress and advancement in life due to reverse racist laws and conditions imposed on the workforce. I repeat not in the past read my lips NOW and in the Future!
Lets think about this.
70% of the population hold on to the hope of AA benifiting them now add a sunset clause...... 70% of the population up in arms.
Will govenment do it? I dnt think so...
It was just my 2c worth. For the record, I don't think the government will add a sunset clause either, hence the perception will remain. The failure of government to take cognizance of this will, at the very least, contribute to the effect described in this article:
http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/economy/display_article.asp?ArticleID=1518-25_1910734
antowan
07-04-2006, 08:38 PM
Guys, please steer cleer of personal insults. Attack issues, not people. Thanks.
Guys, please steer cleer of personal insults. Attack issues, not people. Thanks.
???????????
Captain Beer
07-04-2006, 11:40 PM
I was interviewed by a small company last year. The interview went well and they were going to call me to let me know if I got the job. On the way home I got a call and the guy said sorry mate, but we have a black guys CV here and we can't offer you the job if he has applied. I was so shocked I even called them when I got home to make sure I wasn't hearing things!
hj2k_x
07-04-2006, 11:53 PM
I was interviewed by a small company last year. The interview went well and they were going to call me to let me know if I got the job. On the way home I got a call and the guy said sorry mate, but we have a black guys CV here and we can't offer you the job if he has applied. I was so shocked I even called them when I got home to make sure I wasn't hearing things!
as repugnant as this is, it doesnt really suprise me :p
Abinadi
08-04-2006, 01:20 AM
I don't believe those are the words of the relevant Churchill quote.
Affirmative action is destroying a lot more than white prospects. One needs a mind altering substance to miss the rot which will turn this country into another African disaster if the nation's eyes are not opened and appropriate corrective action taken quickly.
There are organisations on this planet which correctly identify the fact that man on the whole is not fit to manage himeself or his planet and that a unified approach with unwavering dedication is required to provide a sustainable future.
What they miss is the fact that no such approach can be imposed on man. The guidance of deity is the path to be sought. The program which will work will be introduced by our maker once we are fully ripened in iniquity and then sifted to leave the willing.
There is only one important task. Ernestly strive to do what is right in all things, at all times, for all people. We are all truely siblings and children of The Most High.
The guidance of deity is the path to be sought. The program which will work will be introduced by our maker once we are fully ripened in iniquity and then sifted to leave the willing.
Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I still can't find this deity chappie - any suggestions where to look?
;)
Accursed are those who stray from the topic - I think we should get back to it!
VJB 449
09-04-2006, 09:44 AM
On the contrary affirmative action is hurting white prospects. Every day I see people appointed into positions they are not suitable and qualified for and this country sliding further and further into the mud. Just look at Governments's great levels of service delivery. Try and get an appointment as a manager in Government.
nocilah
09-04-2006, 10:51 AM
For anyone who benefits from the ANC's racist policies... is it fun to be hired based on skin colour?
For a country who claim that all are equal doesnt it make you sick knowing that you are not being hired on your experience and knowledge but rather the fact that you are black?
AA assumes that ALL black people were previously disadvantaged... regardless of your current status... regardless of what you have achieved this is what this policy assumes.
It also assumes that as a black person you do not stand a fair chance against white people because you are black, hence you wil get a handout? Is it me or is this policy simply a control or revenge mechanism that simply disables any form of real intergration of white and balck culture in this country?
Some blacks will think that white guy is undeserving because he is white and some whites will think the same of some black guy... not because of our past history, but because of current goverment policy.
I have said it before:
Whats the difference between:
Park bench for whites only
A job for blacks only
And tell me this country is democratic, fair and equal.
I am proud to say I am white and that I do not need any racist policies or hand outs to help me get ahead in life.
louisp
09-04-2006, 11:18 AM
I can forward you a job mail with the subject:
"........ position available. Only Blacks, Coloureds and Indians need apply"
And this is from a very big company.
I challenge anyone to tell me, that is not racist!! Wake up people.
as repugnant as this is, it doesnt really suprise me :p
I heard of similar cases where company's were taken to court giving the job to a white applicant when the failed black applicant failed the criteria and laid charges! Thats why company's do it! they cannot afford the alternate!
DigitalSoldier
09-04-2006, 01:13 PM
@ halicon thats what i have been saying all along how can u feel good about urself knowing u got a job because of ur skin colour and not ur ability to perform. When u know some1 else deserved the job more.
nocilah
09-04-2006, 01:28 PM
@ halicon thats what i have been saying all along how can u feel good about urself knowing u got a job because of ur skin colour and not ur ability to perform. When u know some1 else deserved the job more.
dunno ... i'm white. what do whites know?