Dad sees daughter crushed by car

[Korn1]

Johannesburg - A Secunda man has told how he saw his only daughter being hit and killed by a car while he was out cycling with her.

Dr Johannes Welman started crying when he recalled how much his daughter, Christelle Swanepoel, 26, had loved nature.

He told Beeld: “She was fantastic. She lived life to the full. She had only been married for seven months.”

Swanepoel, 26, was killed in what has been described as an illegal drag race. Her husband Richard Swanepoel, 26, was injured in the accident.

Welman said he had been cycling with his daughter and her husband and had looked at the road to see if it was safe to cross.

He saw the yellow Uno and the silver BMW but they were far away.

Suddenly there was a loud crash. The driver of the Uno lost control of the car and hit Welman’s daughter, crushing her and rolling over her.

The drivers of both cars have been arrested.

http://www.news24.com/SouthAfrica/News/Dad-sees-daughter-crushed-by-car-20120503

:cry:

[Mike Hoxbig]

Who drag races a sardine can, otherwise known as an Uno? :wtf:

[supersunbird]

Uno Turbo I guess, they weigh like 700kg, so good power to weight ratio

+1 for the following comment:

camp.j - May 3, 2012 at 11:58
If this was my daughter, i would be charged with murder! This is happening way to often

[Dom1n8tr1x]

Who drag races a sardine can, otherwise known as an Uno? :wtf:

People who don't feel the need to drive car that fits their ego?

[Mila]

Who drag races a sardine can, otherwise known as an Uno? :wtf:

Amazing. The one in PTA was also a Uno.
Stupid.

[killadoob]

Perhaps it is time to set an example, charge the uno driver with murder and put him away for 20 years.

Perhaps that might wake these retards up a bit. The worst case scenario for the uno driver is a suspended sentence.

[Ockie]

Perhaps it is time to set an example, charge the uno driver with murder and put him away for 20 years.

Perhaps that might wake these retards up a bit. The worst case scenario for the uno driver is a suspended sentence.

I agree....though 20 years seem a little short. It might not have been planned....but this kind of stupidity should carry a life sentance.

[ToxicBunny]

I would def suggest charging the Uno driver with Murder and the other one with attempted murder (if its legally possible)... make them suffer and send a message to the ****ers who do this.

[Slootvreter]

I'm so ****en sick of there wannabe dragsters.

[Byakuya]

Shame man, that must have been horrible! They must get life without parole!

Death to them!

[Koosi]

Perhaps that might wake these retards up a bit. The worst case scenario for the uno driver is a suspended sentence.

Like the chop who wiped out a family near my parents' house because he decided to dice some idiot up the road, he was travelling in the opposite lane at 140km/h and hit a family in their car as they were about to reverse out their yard.

Rumour has it he is dead, the community apparently got hold of him and broke his little neck for him

[porchrat]

I agree....though 20 years seem a little short. It might not have been planned....but this kind of stupidity should carry a life sentance.
Think about this for a second. While this is definitely a tragedy do you honestly think giving the justice system the power to sentence people to life in prison for what is basically reckless driving is a good thing considering the political atmosphere in this country?

[supersunbird]

Think about this for a second. While this is definitely a tragedy do you honestly think giving the justice system the power to sentence people to life in prison for what is basically reckless driving is a good thing considering the political atmosphere in this country?

Yes, afrikaans saying: "as jy nie wil hoor nie moet jy voel".

[Garson007]

Cyclists make as many terrible decisions as drag racers. Both of them should be off the national roads.

[ponder]

Think about this for a second. While this is definitely a tragedy do you honestly think giving the justice system the power to sentence people to life in prison for what is basically reckless driving is a good thing considering the political atmosphere in this country?

Yes. I still have some faith in the legal system for now, you are still entitled to appeal etc.

[killadoob]

Think about this for a second. While this is definitely a tragedy do you honestly think giving the justice system the power to sentence people to life in prison for what is basically reckless driving is a good thing considering the political atmosphere in this country?

Yes because it is not like this is story is a once off thing, it happens so often. These people don't have to answer for killing and ruining lives. they walk away with suspended sentences while they have ruined a family.

I think porch you may feel different if you had to see your wife die. There is no justice for people who murder like this. It may not have been planned but the uno driver has ruined a family and he will walk away with nothing more a suspended sentence.

It is time to set the benchmark and send someone away for life, this will send a message to people who think it is a good idea to race.

[McT]

Perhaps it is time to set an example, charge the uno driver with murder and put him away for 20 years.

Perhaps that might wake these retards up a bit. The worst case scenario for the uno driver is a suspended sentence.

100% agreed. The sentence should be equal to the recklessness of the act committed. Time to send a strong message of zero tolerance of these clowns.

[reactor_sa]

At least, the racers must not be allowed to drive on national roads ever again. No licence.

[Slootvreter]

Cyclists make as many terrible decisions as drag racers. Both of them should be off the national roads.

I hear you, but I wouldn't quite go that far to say ban them from national roads. What I do dispise though, is the way a cyclist shakes his head at you when you pass close to him, and they're the one riding two next to each other. Pricks.

[porchrat]

Yes because it is not like this is story is a once off thing, it happens so often. These people don't have to answer for killing and ruining lives. they walk away with suspended sentences while they have ruined a family.
You cannot escape from the fact that you are advocating LIFE sentences for accidents. LIFE sentences for negligence. This is insane. Anyone could then be locked up for the rest of their natural lives for making a mistake that resulted in someone's death. This is a very very stupid thing to start doing.



I think porch you may feel different if you had to see your wife die. There is no justice for people who murder like this. It may not have been planned but the uno driver has ruined a family and he will walk away with nothing more a suspended sentence.
If I were to suddenly feel differently just because it was my wife then it would obviously be an emotive response and so should be discarded in any objective discussion anyway. You have no point here at all.



It is time to set the benchmark and send someone away for life, this will send a message to people who think it is a good idea to race.
A benchmark for what?... accidents? :wtf:

Who decides what is and isn't reckless now?... who gets to set these standards? If speeding now counts as reckless driving resulting in life imprisonment then how much speeding exactly and why? 10km over and someone dies... life imprisonment? If not then on what grounds do you send away someone that speeds to a greater extent? What you propose is insane and impractical. Just think about for a bit.

Think beyond the immediate emotive tragedy that has occurred. Yes this woman lost her life and yes the idiot driving was clearly behaving recklessly and should carry some responsibility but life in prison... for fsck sakes that is ridiculous. It isn't like this was premeditated murder. You would strip a person of there entire life for one stupid mistake.

[killadoob]

I'm sorry but it was not an accident porch, an accident is when something happens that is out of your control. Had the guy not been racing he would not have lost control of his car and killed someone.

He knew very well when he started racing that things could go wrong, when u race around streets it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out something like this could happen. It may not bepremeditated but it was no accident. How could it be an accident? he was driving fast and racing, he crashed (omg who would have guessed) and killed someone.

You are acting like it was accident and it wasn't. He didn't accidentally drive fast and race someone. It's murder and he should go to prison for life but you seem to think he should get a slap on the wrist and it's all good.

Shame you were racing and accidentally killed someone, don't worry we understand it was an accident so please when u race again try not to accidentally kill people. Thank you sir and have a wonderful day while the person you murdered can chill 6 feet underground and family you devastated will get over their loss in a few years.

[porchrat]

I'm sorry but it was not an accident porch, an accident is when something happens that is out of your control. Had the guy not been racing he would not have lost control of his car and killed someone.
You have just said that an accident is something that is out of your control. Then you have said the guy lost control of the vehicle but that it wasn't an accident. There are many contradictions here.



He knew very well when he started racing that things could go wrong, when u race around streets it does not take a rocket scientist to figure out something like this could happen. It may not bepremeditated but it was no accident. How could it be an accident? he was driving fast and racing, he crashed (omg who would have guessed) and killed someone.
It was an accident because he lost control. This is your definition I'm using here.



You are acting like it was accident and it wasn't. He didn't accidentally drive fast and race someone. It's murder and he should go to prison for life but you seem to think he should get a slap on the wrist and it's all good.
The racing wasn't an accident sure. He intended to race. He however did not intend to come off the road and kill that woman. That part was an accident and it is that part that you are using to claim that we should throw the guy in prison for life. For shame.

Does this mean this man isn't in some way responsible? No. He is at least partly responsible and should receive a penalty but life imprisonment for murder is not it. That is just baseless crazy talk.



Shame you were racing and accidentally killed someone, don't worry we understand it was an accident so please when u race again try not to accidentally kill people. Thank you sir and have a wonderful day while the person you murdered can chill 6 feet underground and family you devastated will get over their loss in a few years.
I'm not saying this man isn't guilty of reckless or irresponsible behaviour. However life imprisonment for irresponsible behaviour is a ridiculous stance to take. You are reacting to this on an emotive level. You are so focused on the emotional aspect of someone losing their life that you have forgotten what murder is. The intentional taking of the life of another human being. THAT is what people serve life sentences for, not for accidents and reckless behaviour.

[killadoob]

Dude an accident is out of your control, if you are doing 180 or 200 and you are racing and you lose control that is not an accident, that is the expected out come

An accident is when you are driving on the highway and someone does something unexpected or your tyre explodes, that sort of thing. When you get behind the wheel of a car and decide to race someone, you will be driving in a fashion that could very easily cause you to crash thus you know the outcome could be a big crash, you will be driving fast and there is a high possibility you will crash.

Yet you consider that an accident? I consider that an expected out come and claiming your wreckless fast driving was an accident is idiotic.

I accidentally drove like a retard and i accidentally drove fast and then i accidentally lost control of my car and accidentally killed some poor girl who was cycling. Yea whatever porch. Sympathizers are the reason these fkers get away with murdering innocent people.

[supersunbird]

I'm not saying this man isn't guilty of reckless or irresponsible behaviour. However life imprisonment for irresponsible behaviour is a ridiculous stance to take. You are reacting to this on an emotive level. You are so focused on the emotional aspect of someone losing their life that you have forgotten what murder is. The intentional taking of the life of another human being. THAT is what people serve life sentences for, not for accidents and reckless behaviour.

What do you think is a suitable punishment for this type of thing?

[porchrat]

Dude an accident is out of your control, if you are doing 180 or 200 and you are racing and you lose control that is not an accident, that is the expected out come
Now you are claiming that everyone (or at least the vast majority) that does 180 or 200 loses control. What the hell man you expect me to take you seriously after a comment like that?!? :wtf:

Show me the stats or stop pulling garbage out of your ass. Oh wait... the stats don't exist so you have no choice but to pull this stuff out of your ass.



An accident is when you are driving on the highway and someone does something unexpected or your tyre explodes, that sort of thing. When you get behind the wheel of a car and decide to race someone, you will be driving in a fashio that could very cause an accident thus you know the outcome could be a big crash, you will be driving fast and there is a high possibility you will crash.
Nope both are accidents. One involves a case of reckless behaviour or negligence but they are both still accidents. If you don't intend for something to happen then it is an accident. Does that mean that someone involved doesn't still have some responsibility? Nope, the guy should have been able to foresee that that action could have resulted in injury and so he is at least in some way responsible. Is it still an accident though? Yup.

Is it murder? Nope, he didn't actually intend to kill anyone. Is anyone that suggests that it is murder and worthy of life imprisonment being a little ridiculous? Yup.



Yet you consider that an accident? I consider that an expected out come and claiming your wreckless fast driving was an accident is idiotic.
Then you need to look up the definition of "accident". Here let me help:

1. an unfortunate incident that happens unexpectedly and unintentionally, typically resulting in damage or injury

2 an event that happens by chance or that is without apparent or deliberate cause
So are you arguing that he intended to crash and kill that woman?... are you saying he expected to crash into that woman (you know before the start he was like "wow this is going to be an awesome race I'm going to end up on my roof on top of that cycling chick over there! woohoo!")?... are you arguing that his crash was deliberate? What exactly are you trying to argue here killa?

It was an accident. Go buy a dictionary for fscks sake.


You realise killa that this is your argument: "he should have expected the crash as a possible outcome therefore he intentionally murdered someone and must go to prison for the rest of his life".

Seriously... What. The. Fsck.

[killadoob]

Why do you only read what suits your argument. I said if you are doing 180-200 and YOU ARE RACING the chances are you will crash.

So i hope you read what i said this time but let me run it again, IF YOU ARE DOING 180-200 AND RACING chances are you will lose control. Racing is different to climbing on a highway and doing 200km, that does not mean much but when you are racing at speed the outcome could very well be a huge crash and sadly these racers always come out fine while the innocent people die.

You cannot claim racing at high speed won't result in a big crash because it will. for the most part these racers will take big chances and drive very dangerously and you want to claim it's then an accident if they crash LOL

[porchrat]

Why do you only read what suits your argument. I said if you are doing 180-200 and YOU ARE RACING the chances are you will crash.
No that isn't what you said. You said the crash is the expected outcome. Two entirely different things. Don't lie now.



You cannot claim racing at high speed won't result in a big crash because it will.
You have just said it AGAIN!! Right after you spent an entire paragraph trying to pretend that that isn't what you said! :wtf:

I've seen many races that didn't result in big crashes. I must have dreamed all of those huh killa? :wtf:

Stop making ridiculous claims now. This is uncalled for. Frankly if you are going to make these wild obviously false claims then what point is there having a discussion.



for the most part these racers will take big chances and drive very dangerously and you want to claim it's then an accident if they crash LOL
I want to claim it is an accident when they unintentionally lose control of the vehicle and crash? Yes. If I'm speaking English then that is definitely what I want to claim because it is a textbook definition of an accident as far as the English language is concerned.

[killadoob]

Well you believe what you want to, we can agree to disagree but the guy in the uno is murderer and he is no different to the criminals who knowingly murder someone and they should send him away for life.

If people want to race then they should find suitable places to race that will not endanger innocent people, if they cannot do that they must rot in a jail cell for 20 years. If you have no regard for your own life that is fine but when you have no regard for other people's lives then you should rot away in a tiny prison cell with bubba butt raping you.

[m4dh4tt3r]

ok well i think the point is being missed by porchrat. killadoob wants them to go to jail cos too many people are racing illegally on public roads where pavements and all sorts of things can cause a car to lose control and kill somebody innocent.

At the end of the day it comes down to the fact that the racers were careless and racing on a public road illegally is just not acceptable. I fully agree with killa here. If you are going 180-200 km and hour on a public road with speedlimits of like 80km/h or less then you should expect an accident. I as a racer on tracks have never seen somebody who has never had a crash. ALL RACERS WILL CRASH EVENTUALLY whether you are michael schumacher or valentino rossi and even they crash under the safest of conditions so never mind what will happen to the illegal racers on public roads.

I agree here killa, these guys were racing and were wrong. i understand what you getting at and porch is clearly missing it or trying to get around the point here in my opinion

[bwana]

If you race cars crashing is an inevitability - fine if it happens on a track, it's what they're designed for, but there's no place for racing on a public road.

[phiber]

Cyclists make as many terrible decisions as drag racers. Both of them should be off the national roads.

excuse me? are you retarded?? the roads are there not only for cars, but for bicycles as well. People that drive fast cyclists just to make us wobble must die slow terrible deaths.

[Garson007]

excuse me? are you retarded?? the roads are there not only for cars, but for bicycles as well. People that drive fast cyclists just to make us wobble must die slow terrible deaths.
I'm not the one who will die from you being stupid. Who's the retard? :whistle:

[killadoob]

excuse me? are you retarded?? the roads are there not only for cars, but for bicycles as well. People that drive fast cyclists just to make us wobble must die slow terrible deaths.

Cyclists that drive two or three abreast should die slow terrible deaths, they block the road and then get mad at people who hoot. F them they must learn some respect.

Some of them are very arrogant and the roads are there for cars, i have never seen a rule saying cyclists can block roads if they choose to. They should cycle in single file. They should respect cars just as much as cars should respect them. I hate it when cyclists decide to ride next to each other and make it difficult to pass them and then shake their heads when i drive close to them to avoid going to far into the next lane.

[porchrat]

ok well i think the point is being missed by porchrat. killadoob wants them to go to jail cos too many people are racing illegally on public roads where pavements and all sorts of things can cause a car to lose control and kill somebody innocent.
No killadoob wants them to go to jail FOR LIFE FOR MURDER. I have missed nothing here.

As long as it is established that he was entirely at fault and the cyclist wasn't doing anything untoward either then I have no problem with this dude seeing some jail time or at the very least facing a nice big juicy fine and a suspended sentence. I just think it is ludicrous to claim that he is guilty of murder and needs to go to jail for life.

[killadoob]

You think the cyclist did something wrong? like what, cycling on the road or perhaps she was driving wrecklessly and it's her fault a speeding retard lost control of his car racing someone.

So you want a suspended sentence for someone who was racing and killed an innocent bystander? Geezuz that is disgusting, how can people get away with murder and destroying lives and even more amazing is there are people who are happy to see people get away with it.

I can bet you right now if you were cycling with your girlfriend and a racing speeding uno killed her, you would want to kill that guy porch although judging by your attitude you might first wonder if your girlfriend did something to cause the racing speeding uno to crash so perhaps you would be fine with him walking away with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

[Albereth]

You think the cyclist did something wrong? like what, cycling on the road or perhaps she was driving wrecklessly and it's her fault a speeding retard lost control of his car racing someone.

So you want a suspended sentence for someone who was racing and killed an innocent bystander? Geezuz that is disgusting, how can people get away with murder and destroying lives and even more amazing is there are people who are happy to see people get away with it.

I can bet you right now if you were cycling with your girlfriend and a racing speeding uno killed her, you would want to kill that guy porch although judging by your attitude you might first wonder if your girlfriend did something to cause the racing speeding uno to crash so perhaps you would be fine with him walking away with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.

It just doesn't make it murder.

Oh - wreckless driving is a good thing.

[porchrat]

You think the cyclist did something wrong? like what, cycling on the road or perhaps she was driving wrecklessly and it's her fault a speeding retard lost control of his car racing someone.
It really doesn't matter whether or not she did something wrong. What matters is that he didn't intentionally kill someone and so cannot be guilty of murder. He lost control of a vehicle and someone died. He wasn't in control. You cannot be guilty of murder if you aren't in control. This is a matter of culpability.



So you want a suspended sentence for someone who was racing and killed an innocent bystander? Geezuz that is disgusting, hbow can people get away with murder and destroying lives and even more amazing is there are people who are happy to see people get away with it.
As I said it isn't murder. Murder requires that it be intentional. So no I am definitely not saying that he be allowed to get away with murder.

What his actual sentence is depends on the circumstances and the judge will decide is what I am saying. I don't know all the details and you certainly don't. (unlike your amazing omniscience regarding speeding and crash statistics that you suck from your ass). If the man is found to be culpable enough then he might even get a manslaughter conviction or something similar which carries a lot of jailtime but murder and life imprisonment is not even on the table here mate. That is irrational kookoo talk.



I can you right now if you were cycling with your girlfriend a racing speeding uno killed her, you would want to kill that guy porch although judging by your attitude you might first wonder if your girlfriend did something to cause the racing speeding uno to crash so perhaps you would be fine with him walking away with nothing more than a slap on the wrist.
Whether or not I wanted to kill him would be an entirely emotive response and so (as I have mentioned before) is completely irrelevant to not only this but ANY discussion. Stop trying to appeal to emotion it means absolutely nothing. Be objective and discuss it like a rational human being not an irrational emotive one.

[killadoob]

Well i am saying change the laws and make illegal racing a murder offense if an innocent person dies. Send someone away for life, you can bet illegal racing will disappear over night.

[porchrat]

Well i am saying change the laws and make illegal racing a murder offense if an innocent person dies. Send someone away for life, you can bet illegal racing will disappear over night.
What you would actually be doing is changing murder to include unintentional loss of life. This is a very stupid thing to do because then all sorts of things that were previously just examples of manslaughter or something lighter will be reclassified as murder. In fact we could probably do away with that whole manslaughter (or whatever we call the equivalent offence in our legal system) thing altogether and everything could just be murder. Yay for poorly thought out suggestions! :erm:

Say for example you are driving along and some drunk moron steps into the road in front of your car. You unintentionally run him down and kill him. Congratulations, under the killadoob legal system you could very well be found guilty of murder because even though you didn't intend to kill the man you did.

This sort of problem is why right in the beginning I said that those who suggest that the man be sent to prison for the rest of his life for murder give some serious thought to the ramifications of what it is they are suggesting as opposed to just focusing on the immediate emotive aspects of this one particular case. If you would forgive me getting figurative for a moment here: Think objectively with your brain killa, not subjectively with your heart.

EDIT: Having seen the way the government handles power I am surprised at how eager some people are to assign greater powers to our government. As far as I am concerned there are very few offences worthy of receiving a life term for. Even then this should only be done when there is overwhelming evidence demonstrating guilt. If we allow anything more than the strictest conditions around the handing out of life sentences then we open ourselves up to abuse through that system.

[killadoob]

You see you make stupid examples, if a drunk person steps into the line of a car and dies, that is his fault. How is that the same as illegally racing and killing someone?

I just cannot see how the two are even remotely the same thing. Why do the other laws have to change, bring in a law that is usable only for illegal racing incident, it cannot be that hard.

it is incredibly difficult to argue with someone who thinks killing a drunk man who steps in front of a car and killing an innocent person while illegally racing is the same thing. :eek:

[Madman88]

Uno Turbo I guess, they weigh like 700kg, so good power to weight ratio

+1 for the following comment:

camp.j - May 3, 2012 at 11:58
If this was my daughter, i would be charged with murder! This is happening way to often

not murder. What is the crime called when you crush every major joint in someones body anyway?

[killadoob]

not murder. What is the crime called when you crush every major joint in someones body anyway?

An accident according to porch. Wasn't his fault that she was cycling where they were racing.

[porchrat]

You see you make stupid examples, if a drunk person steps into the line of a car and dies, that is his fault. How is that the same as illegally racing and killing someone?

I just cannot see how the two are even remotely the same thing. Why do the other laws have to change, bring in a law that is usable only for illegal racing incident, it cannot be that hard.
The law has to be based on something. You can't just make illegal racing a special case that results in murder while the drunk individual doesn't. In bother cases the driver ran someone over unintentionally. Why now suddenly when it is in the situation of racing does it become murder when it isn't in the other? Your law is inconsistent.



it is incredibly difficult to argue with someone who thinks killing a drunk man who steps in front of a car and killing an innocent person while illegally racing is the same thing. :eek:
Once you create a law stating that unintentionally killing someone counts as murder they are legally speaking the same thing. You have eliminated the principle of culpability and so have eliminated all reason when deciding what constitutes murder and what doesn't.

Seriously man think before you type stuff. :(

[porchrat]

An accident according to porch. Wasn't his fault that she was cycling where they were racing.
Don't misrepresent me. Show me where I said it wasn't his fault or shutup. :mad:

This is not the way to have a mature conversation mate.

[Madman88]

An accident according to porch. Wasn't his fault that she was cycling where they were racing.

I meant supersunbirds comment. :p

A murder means there was intent. So technically this is not. Its manslaughter. It should be noted that you can get a maximum sentence for negligent manslaughter same as murder. They're just descriptive words.
Manslaughter is not necessarily a lesser crime than murder.

You cannot commit murder by mistake, but you can commit manslaughter by mistake and just like there can be extenuating circumstances that would ease or even remove a harsh sentence on murder, there are also aggravating circumstances that can make manslaughter worse.

[killadoob]

I meant supersunbirds comment.

A murder means there was intent. So technically this is not. Its manslaughter. It should be noted that you can get a maximum sentence for negligent manslaughter same as murder. They're just descriptive words.
Manslaughter is not necessarily a lesser crime than murder.

Yup you can but for the most part suspended sentences are handed out, look at jub jub he murdered some children and will more than likely walk with community service but as mentioned he never intended on murdering those kids, he was just racing at high speed. They were stupid enough to be walking on the road.

Well porch if they were not cycling there they would not have been hit, so in a sense it was their fault, they should know that on SA's roads illegal racing is fine and carries pretty much no sentence. These racers don't have to fear killing people, suspended sentences and perhaps some community service. Why worry, why think before you start racing, hmmm if i kill someone i could go to jail for life. Let's do it if someone dies so what i will walk away with a slap on the wrist.

[porchrat]

Well porch if they were not cycling there they would not have been hit, so in a sense it was their fault, they should know that on SA's roads illegal racing is fine and carries pretty much no sentence.
As it shouldn't it is just reckless driving. You don't go to jail for life for reckless driving. This racing is a traffic violation. You don't serve real time for traffic violations.



These racers don't have to fear killing people, suspended sentences and perhaps some community service. Why worry, why think before you start racing, hmmm if i kill someone i could go to jail for life. Let's do it if someone dies so what i will walk away with a slap on the wrist.
None of which addresses the massive logic and practicality holes in the killadoob legal system you have proposed in which an unintended death can result in a successful conviction for murder and a life sentence.

I never said the current system is perfect. I just said the one you propose is batschit nuts.

In this situation I would hope that the man would be convicted on manslaughter or something and doesn't just get away clean. After all he should have foreseen that racing in a suburban area could result in injury or death for bystanders. He didn't intend for it to happen but it did and he does have in my mind some level of responsibility for it. That doesn't mean he is guilty of murder though and deserves to go away for life. You don't go away for life for unintentional harm, you go away for life for serious intentional harm. Heck you don't even necessarily go away for life on a murder conviction let alone a drag racing crash.

[supersunbird]

not murder. What is the crime called when you crush every major joint in someones body anyway?

Huh?

The commentator was saying if he was the daughters father he would be charged for murder because he would have killed the uno driver... which I agree with if it was me and someone did something irresponsible and killed one of my family members and I had witnessed it.

[R13...]

Yup you can but for the most part suspended sentences are handed out, look at jub jub he murdered some children and will more than likely walk with community service but as mentioned he never intended on murdering those kids, he was just racing at high speed. They were stupid enough to be walking on the road.

But Jub Jub has been charged with murder and if found guilty he is likely to get more than community service. That taxi driver in CT also got murder and went away for 10 or so years.

[bwana]

It should carry the same sentence as firing a gun into a crowd.

[killadoob]

But Jub Jub has been charged with murder and if found guilty he is likely to get more than community service. That taxi driver in CT also got murder and went away for 10 or so years.

Yea but his lawyers will argue it wasn't murder and it will be reduced to manslaughter and then they will argue he never intended to kill them and it was accident and he will walk.

Yea that taxi driver gave me that good feeling and i hope one day an illegal racer is charged with murder and put in prison for 10 years.

[supersunbird]

The law has to be based on something. You can't just make illegal racing a special case that results in murder while the drunk individual doesn't. In bother cases the driver ran someone over unintentionally. Why now suddenly when it is in the situation of racing does it become murder when it isn't in the other? Your law is inconsistent.



Once you create a law stating that unintentionally killing someone counts as murder they are legally speaking the same thing. You have eliminated the principle of culpability and so have eliminated all reason when deciding what constitutes murder and what doesn't.

Seriously man think before you type stuff. :(

We've discussed this on the forum before, its the same type of case with that humphries railroad corssing taxi driver and the one who drove over the scooter schoolgirl in garsfontein. They were charged and convicted of murder. Some like "dolus eventualis" where you can foresee the course of action (like trying to beat the train across the crossing, and racing/dicing on a public road and drunk driving too if you want) can result in death and you reconsile yourself with that and do it anyway.

[R13...]

Yea but his lawyers will argue it wasn't murder and it will be reduced to manslaughter and then they will argue he never intended to kill them and it was accident and he will walk.

Yea that taxi driver gave me that good feeling and i hope one day an illegal racer is charged with murder and put in prison for 10 years.
The state is using the argument that he has to have foreseen that getting drugged up and racing down a public road (at school out time) could result in him killing someone.

[porchrat]

We've discussed this on the forum before, its the same type of case with that humphries railroad corssing taxi driver and the one who drove over the scooter schoolgirl in garsfontein. They were charged and convicted of murder. Some like "dolus eventualis" where you can foresee the course of action (like trying to beat the train across the crossing, and racing/dicing on a public road and drunk driving too if you want) can result in death and you reconsile yourself with that and do it anyway.
dolus eventualis is indirect intention. The prosecution would then have to demonstrate that the individual knew there was a chance that somebody was going to die in that situation.

I suppose you might be able to get away with a murder conviction under those conditions. Depends on the circumstances I suppose.

[porchrat]

The state is using the argument that he has to have foreseen that getting drugged up and racing down a public road (at school out time) could result in him killing someone.
Ooooooh if he was drugged up then he is probably in trouble.

[killadoob]

Ooooooh if he was drugged up then he is probably in trouble.

Why, drugs are illegal so is racing so why would you feel drugs would be more of an issue than racing?

In all fairness how was he to know being drugged up and racing would lead to someone dying porch? So it was an accident surely?

I am loving this porch logic so much :D

[Madman88]

Huh?

The commentator was saying if he was the daughters father he would be charged for murder because he would have killed the uno driver... which I agree with if it was me and someone did something irresponsible and killed one of my family members and I had witnessed it.

yea I'm saying it would not be murder with me. it would be whatever that crime is called..

/communication fail on my part :p

[porchrat]

Why, drugs are illegal so is racing so why would you feel drugs would be more of an issue than racing?

In all fairness how was he to know being drugged up and racing would lead to someone dying porch? So it was an accident surely?
This isn't about the legality of drugs versus racing this is about his ability to make reliable decisions at the time. Drugs further impair his judgement and is more evidence against him when it comes to determining his culpability (remember I mentioned this concept earlier, look it up it is important). This is about whether or not he should have, under ideal circumstances, been able to determine whether or not his actions were likely to result in death.

EDIT: It looks as though through this concept an individual can actually be convicted of murder without direct intent. Amazing. Thanks for the reference supersunbird I have learnt something new today. Still life in prison remains kookoo talk.



I am loving this porch logic so much :D
At least I am using logic Mr. "but they are both illegal so why does one matter over the other?"

[supersunbird]

yea I'm saying it would not be murder with me. it would be whatever that crime is called..

/communication fail on my part :p

beaten to a pulp? doesn't sound like a really legal term...

[killadoob]

This is about whether or not he should have, under ideal circumstances, been able to determine whether or not his actions were likely to result in death.

Well illegal racing in places where innocent people are going about their business could very well end in death, so there is nothing to determine, you know it can happen so when it does claiming it was unintentional surely cannot hold up in court.

Basically porch in easy terms, you know prior to engaging the race the outcome could be bad if something goes wrong, you then go ahead knowing something could go wrong, something goes wrong when you knew it could go wrong and then you claim it was unintentional.

Boy how on earth people buy that rubbish is beyond me.

[porchrat]

This is about whether or not he should have, under ideal circumstances, been able to determine whether or not his actions were likely to result in death.

Well illegal racing in places where innocent people are going about their business could very well end in death, so there is nothing to determine, you know it can happen so when it does claiming it was unintentional surely cannot hold up in court.
Depends on the circumstances I suppose.



Basically porch in easy terms, you know prior to engaging the race the outcome could be bad if something goes wrong, you then go ahead knowing something could go wrong, something goes wrong when you knew it could go wrong and then you claim it was unintentional.

Boy how on earth people buy that rubbish is beyond me.
It is the truth. They only get you on something called indirect intention and that is not going to result in a life sentence.

[killadoob]

As long as it involves some jail time i will be happy.

[Madman88]

beaten to a pulp? doesn't sound like a really legal term...

is it still called a beating when you crush it with a table vice?

[porchrat]

As long as it involves some jail time i will be happy.
It should do. A few years at least I would imagine.

[porchrat]

is it still called a beating when you crush it with a table vice?
I would imagine that falls under assault or assault with intent to inflict grievous bodily harm.

[Ryanbighead]

involuntary Manslaughter. Is this a legal term in our legal system?

[Garson007]

killadoob being irrational again. I completely agree with Porchrat. Accidents, that happen through negligence, are not murder.

[Fudzy]

killadoob being irrational again. I completely agree with Porchrat. Accidents, that happen through negligence, are not murder.

I wonder if either of the drivers were DUI.

[supersunbird]

killadoob being irrational again. I completely agree with Porchrat. Accidents, that happen through negligence, are not murder.

Wilful negligence (not wanting to stick to speed limit, f govment and slow people) or real accidental i-did-not-think-that would-happen negligence?

[killadoob]

killadoob being irrational again. I completely agree with Porchrat. Accidents, that happen through negligence, are not murder.

Negligence is not racing at high speed in area's populated by innocent people. Negligence is forgetting to replace your brakes or ignoring your bald tires.

The only irrational people are those who defend these killers.

http://www.sowetanlive.co.za/news/2012/03/12/illegal-drag-racing-incident-claims-7-lives

I guess garson those stupid fools were walking on the road, what a silly thing to do. Those two racers could never have known they might kill people.

Please send these fking idiots to jail for a minimum of 10 years.

[Fudzy]

The only irrational people are those who defend these killers.

Those that live their lives (and ruin others), one quarter mile (of public road) at a time.