When is it a lie and when it is not?

TELESPHORE

TELESPHORE

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In the media and all over in this forum there is a constant jibe at European people by out rightly say land was stolen from blacks. SA is huge and does the perpetrators of these accusations have any proof of their statements? Not even the land reform commission can find proof of land stolen, as the disposed people were compensated. There is another topic that dealt with that,
First there is no written history or archive or deeds office of the so-called victims of stolen property. So it is only word of mouth, political rally speeches and hate speech being used as the so called proof. If you propagate a lie it soon becomes a truth.
How many of us have been sorry for selling something and finding out later it became more valuable than you thought. You cannot then say it was stolen or you were ripped off!
To some a useless piece of ground might be a start to something that you see as potential and it gets DEVELOPED. The original owner had no value for it and sold/traded it for what it is worth for the owner at the time.
If someone recycles your rubbish and gets rich doing it, was your rubbish stolen?
Only fools think so.
But I think we should start pointing fingers at lies that fools propagate. A lie is a lie – no argument about it.
Allowing a lie to be spread is being guilty as spreading the lie yourself.
 
There were massive relocations of land - land where people had been living for generations - suddenly moved to a new 'homeland' or area. Whole pieces of the country cut up and parcelled out - (what a joke) -. 1000 sq k of property for military training? No problem. The herero and san tribes - the coloured people of CT - the black people of a dozen homelands - soweto, alexander... get some history dude.
 
I know my history quite well enough. I am part of that history.
Some interesting points and one I raised before. When is the state going to give back the land they took? No they are not because there is no claim on it as it was not developed.
I would like to see where someone was not compensated for the land moved in equitable terms. Was anyone just moved without compensation?
Not only non whites were displaced. Lets get that straight also.
But that is one part.
My big question is the blank statement that all of the land was stolen by the Europeans. That is a lie and a big lie and I want to see the proof.
Also there was mention of the San. Who displaced the San? Give me answers on that.
 
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TELESPHORE said:
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Also there was mention of the San. Who displaced the San? Give me answers on that.
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Shhhh! Don't mention the Koi-San That's a sensitive issue for the ANC.;)

What about district 6. Now that was a huge filthy dangerous slum - a long-standing shameful blot on the mountainside - visible to any visitors to the city. At the time EVERYBODY (apart from the slum-dwellers of course) was happy to see that go. Yet now they have museums lamenting it's passing. Some things I'll never understand.
 
kilo39 said:
1000 sq k of property for military training? No problem.
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I suppose you refer to Lohatla. Ever been there?

We use to refer to that place as the ******* of the world. And another one: If the good Lord and the devil were to play poker with Lohatla as the price, the devil would have cheated to lose.

The specific place, I think, you are refering to was Ghatlose. Almost in the middle of Lohatla.

They were in the middle of nowhere. The closest place was Sishen, about 35km away. Now remember Sishen was built by Iscor. Before Sishen was Postmansburg about 70km from Ghatlose established by sheep farmers. Travel that with a donkey cart and then tell me of the wonders of civilization. That piece of land was not worth R30.00 to a morgen.

If you stood on the stoep of your sheep farm, you could not see another "opstal" in any direction. The size of farms there were about 20 000 hectares average. You saw your sheep once a year at shearing time. (As long as the rams and windpompe worked everything was honkey-dorey.)

Comes the military and developed the place as a practice area. Bought out farmers and those people from Ghatlose all at the same price. All of a sudden that piece of land becomes a very valuable piece of property. Ghatlose is in the middle of this practice facility. Take Ghatlose out and the complete Lohatla is rendered useless.

You guessed correct. All of a sudden our forefathers.... etc.

These people were compensated at the time. At was a propper propperty transaction! All of a sudden: Our forefathers... .

Our forefathers: read we found a "good" lawyer.

The others. Some were compensated some not. Some at good prices, some not. I honestly don't know. The Ghatlose saga I unfortunately know well.
 
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Sorry to nitpick Getafix, but the town is Lohatla and the training area you refer to is/was Army Battle School/Leergevegskool.

Thus its physically impossible for Ghatlose to be in the middle of Lohatla.:D
 
Ah! Battleschool Galactica. What an awful dump. Freshy-ZN in my time it was known as The Army Battle School, Lohatla, on the many orders we issued, so I figure you might be nitpicking. The rocks full of veins of asbestos fibres, seriously extra freezing in winter ( never been so cold in my life! ). Absolutely g0dforsaken - you would need to pay someone to take the land off your hands!
 
Freshy-ZN said:
Sorry to nitpick Getafix, but the town is Lohatla and the training area you refer to is/was Army Battle School/Leergevegskool.

Thus its physically impossible for Ghatlose to be in the middle of Lohatla.:D
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Fair enough.

Lohatla is no town or nothing.

It is a railway halt. One of those places that resembles a bus stop. Only the "milk train" will stop there. And, of course, troop trains use to stop there.

But you are totally correct. It was Army Battle school. Generally we use to refer to it as Lohatla.
 
sure they weren't just kicked off the land.. but forced to sell. There a HUGE difference if you are forced to relocate. District six was a slum i guess but its the most famous one ;) I know of people who were forced to sell up and move from claremont + newlands in cpt too. But why bring it up now? I mean of the people what were relocated most of them just accepted that it was the apartheid gov responsible and not the europeans as you say.
 
It's amazing how people can expect reconciliation when they still actively defend the oppressive actions of the past.
 
We're going to take your home, but we'll give 20c so you can't say you haven't been compensated. Furthermore how much can we trust claims of compensation from a government whose daily business was lying?

In most cases the government would have just informed the inhabitants that they're taking the land. And they generally enticed them by claiming they would be moved to somewhere better.

It is actually really difficult to investigate this sort of thing. I've no doubt some people had their land stolen while others either never had any land or were properly compensated.
 
What is truly sad, is that people still believe in the propaganda or brain-washing campaigns of the Oppressive, apartheid government, yes land was stolen, human dignity was trampled on, and people were treated as second class citizens in their own country

We should not only blame the leaders of the time for the oppression, but every person who made it sucessful, every person who kicked a black out of a store, off a park bench, or took up residence in an area stolen, yes stolen, ( property deal = willing buyer, willing seller ) from it's initial occupants, should step up and apologise for what they have done.

In this country, the black man, showed immense civility, and decided to forgive people for what they have done, yet people either defend the actions of the past or even worse deny it ever happened.

Are we to believe that certain South Africans are so cowardly that they can't accept that they have done wrong, apologise and move on
 
Angelo said:
It's amazing how people can expect reconciliation when they still actively defend the oppressive actions of the past.
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Huh? Most people would relish at starting anew. An opportunity to explore new freedoms and have access to all parts of the country and no longer be oppressed is reason enough to rejoice in a bright future. No one here (AFAI have seen) defends the past. They're merely pointing out some major issues that seem to be enjoying priority while other problems require urgent attention. Sure, there will be a small percentage of people wishing that they could exact revenge on the previous regime, and they are exacting that revenge rather severely, but for the most part I'd like to think that if the immediate problems were resolved (mostly crime and poverty and job creation), then overall this country can grow from strength to strength.

Unless of course certain people insist that the way forward is to completely erase the past, then this country (and everyone who stays here) is doomed.

Why continue living in the past (in an attempt to rewrite it) when you have a fantastic opportunity to thrive in the future? As it is now, you are already doing things that only your newfound freedoms are affording you. For G*d's sake, move on man. It's been long enough now.
 
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xtermin8or said:
We should not only blame the leaders of the time for the oppression, but every person who made it sucessful, every person who kicked a black out of a store, off a park bench, or took up residence in an area stolen, yes stolen, ( property deal = willing buyer, willing seller ) from it's initial occupants, should step up and apologise for what they have done.
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Dwell on this as long as you want, just remember, the longer people dwell on the past, the less likely they are to enjoy their future.
 
jontyB said:
Huh? Most people would relish at starting anew. An opportunity to explore new freedoms and have access to all parts of the country and no longer be oppressed is reason enough to rejoice in a bright future. No one here (AFAI have seen) defends the past. They're merely pointing out some major issues that seem to be enjoying priority while other problems require urgent attention. Sure, there will be a small percentage of people wishing that they could exact revenge on the previous regime, and they are exacting that revenge rather severely, but for the most part I'd like to think that if the immediate problems were resolved (mostly crime and poverty and job creation), then overall this country can grow from strength to strength.

Unless of course certain people insist that the way forward is to completely erase the past, then this country (and everyone who stays here) is doomed.

Why continue living in the past (in an attempt to rewrite it) when you have a fantastic opportunity to thrive in the future? As it is now, you are already doing things that only your newfound freedoms are affording you. For G*d's sake, move on man. It's been long enough now.
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most people, including myself, are enjoying the present in this country, you're the one who is always complaining, and lets remember what this thread started out saying
 
Angelo said:
It's amazing how people can expect reconciliation when they still actively defend the oppressive actions of the past.
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I think some people simply can't believe what was going on in this country. Back in the 80s we had no idea that torture and mass murder were going on here and in Namibia. Even now it is hard to comprehend that these things actually happened.
 
noxibox said:
I think some people simply can't believe what was going on in this country. Back in the 80s we had no idea that torture and mass murder were going on here and in Namibia. Even now it is hard to comprehend that these things actually happened.
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Yes the regime did do a "good" job at propaganda, trying to hide what was really happening, internally the non-white areas were the battlefield. But it was far more than torture and mass murder, didn't people ask themselves why there were "white-only" schools, beaches, residential areas and so forth?

If it's still hard to comprehend there are documentaries of live film and movies showing exactly what was going on. A few weeks ago I watched one about the End Conscription Campaign titled "EAT MY CALL-UP" showing how some brave white youths resisted the unjust SADF campaigns, it was very revealing.

One of the key figures of the ECC was Dr. Ivan Toms who in 1980 built a clinic in Crossroads squatter settlement, near Cape Town. He was the only doctor serving its 60 000 residents. After witnessing the army and police’s brutality in Crossroads he refused to return to the army. In 1988 he was sentenced to 21 months in jail and spent nine months in Pollsmoor prison, seven of those in solitary confinement.
 
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Thank you Angelo - you seem to be coming to the understanding that not all whites supported the apartheid regime - or encouraged or supported racism.

Some general comments: I wasn't talking about anywhere in particular "1000 sq k of land" - primarily because there were so many. Each to their own training. Land is usually of value to somebody (however little) - in this case it seems it was valuable to Sishen - wasn't that another apartheid apparatchik?

What about district 6. Now that was a huge filthy dangerous slum - a long-standing shameful blot on the mountainside - visible to any visitors to the city. At the time EVERYBODY (apart from the slum-dwellers of course) was happy to see that go. Yet now they have museums lamenting it's passing. Some things I'll never understand.

Actually many people at the time thought it was disgusting that the poorest people were being moved the furthest from employment. And AFAIK most of District 6 was privately owned (white landlords) - it was them that allowed it to become a slum. It was a tragedy and the people of CT were outraged and saddened - and then of course - all the other 'removals' - a long sad sorry line - while real people's rights were being taken away (attacks on freedom of association, freedom of assembly - freedom of opinion/banning of newspapers etc) - a slow insidious erosion of rights/while others had theirs completely removed -. Time. Much as is happening in the world today - the Patriot Act - the ECT bill in this country - an erosion of rights and your privileges as a human being.

I am really saddened that we come to this sorry situation today - where we are regurgitating all these ancient things. A part of my brain and psyche I would never wish to exercise. I remember each of the "fell out of 6th floor window stories" - the "youths shot while rioting" - the deaths in detention - and the daily lineup at Pretoria Central. I don't know specifically of massacres - such as the ones recently 'discovered' in Namibia (though I remember the border wars, the funding of renamo, swapo, etc.) - I do remember the daily shootings - the 'war' in the 'other' suburbs - burning tires and no go areas. Necklacing. I left the country for a few years. But I also remember the church shootings and other 'events'... Point being: I dislike south africans (unless young) who say "gee, didn't know" - um well excuse me - did you live in a cave?

Saddened because I find myself questioning the capacity of this government (an issue that can easily become racial) - and I find myself regurgitating the past by the constant reminders by this government and their supporters. I do not want to live in a racist society or have racist thoughts. And be clear - the Arab Israeli thing, the ira/protestent thing - were/are race wars.

This government (and supporters) constantly(?) regurgitate the apartheid past - and we do the same in our comparisons on issues like delivery, aids and telecoms. The government reinforces this by their non-action and denialability (plain lying on occasion.) FFS - would this gub please get their sh#t together - and cut the rhetoric (and blue in the face, crocodile tear speeches) - and can we all move on!!!?

And latest disgusting headline: only 2% of taxi operators pay tax.
 
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