External 2.5" encolsures - warning

koffiejunkie

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Hi guys,

There's been a lot of talk of notebook drive enclosures lately. There is something to be aware of:

1. Not all USB controllers can throttle or disable a USB device when the device tries to draw more power than the controller can provide.

2. Not all enclosures can shut themselves down if they can't get as much power from the USB controller as they need.

If either of the above happens to be true for your kit, you may damage your hardware. A colleague of mine just blew his brand new MBP's motherboard by plugging a USB enclosure with a 5400 rpm drive in. :eek: I damaged my HP's motherboard in the same way. It still works but the USB bus is no longer reliable, which comes down to the same - I have to replace the motherboard.

As for myself, I have decided to rather buy enclosures that can take external power, and if that isn't possible, plug it into a USB hub that has it's own power source.
 
damn, i just bought another one today, haven't come across this before...
 
I've seen it several times. Clients that plug all sorts of stuff into their machines. PCs not so much as they have much more power available, but notebooks seem to be especially vulnerable. My old P-III notebook could never drive a 5400 drive from USB (it had only one port too) but at least it never sustained any damage. Some machines are just not made as good.

Oh, and don't get me started on those funky USB coffee warmers.... :p
 
You can cause a lot more damage by overloading or shorting usb plugs. I've seen a motherboard with burn marks where the mosfets on the motherboard burst into flames and took the motherboard with it. ;)
 
My USB external HD has external power because I don't trust the USB powered ext.HD's.It's true what you say koffiejunkie, it can do alot of damage.
 
I always get annoyed when I read through the specs of 2.5" USB enclosures and they have lines like "no external power necessary" or "USB powered!" and they make it sound like the cooleste feature ever. More like a nuisance to me.

Then again, most people I've seen with external drives use it for little other than storage, so there's really no need for a fast drive. 4200 rpm drives use little enough power for most controllers.
 
Firwire is king

This is why firewire is king. Firewire ports as part of the spec afik support far more wattage than usb do. Firewire should always be first choice. USb does 5v at 500mA = 2.5 W firewire is rated at 15 W. makes it a very easy choice.

Sometimes though one is forced into using USB, then you need an extra power source, like another usb port or external power.
 
you guys,...really..who makes this stuff up?
you have internet access, use it and get yourselves more educated.

I'm not even gonna start explaining on how many levels the preceding posts contribute to internet suckage.
 
I don't care about what other people write on the internet. I tested the same drive (5400rpm) on the same notebook with three different enclosures (yes, I have done this), get the following results:

1. Enclosure A spins up, spins down and doesn't do anything further.

2. Enclosure B spins up, spins for a few seconds, spins down and spins up again. Repeat repeat repeat.

3. Enclosure C spins up, stays spinned up but preduces nothing but errors in my logs. After a few seconds the errors stop, and after this I notice my notebook's USB is screwed.

Enclosures A, B, and C all work normally on a PC. Plugging either of the above enclosures with the 5400rpm drive into my Mac, OS X gives me an error telling me that my USB port cannot produce enough power for the attached device.

Replacing the 5400rpm drive with a 4200rpm, allows each of the enclosures to work normally on my notebook and on the Mac.

Plugging the 5400rpm drive, in any of the enclosures, into a powered USB hub, enables it to work properly.

This leads me to the following conclusions:
1. Some machines don't give enough power through a single USB port to power a 5400rpm hard disc.

2. Plugging in another USB cable for power (espcially when it's a notebook with only two USB ports) might be pushing the limits.

3. Pushing the limits might damage your hardware (as is often the case with electronics).

4. Some hardware is designed to cope with a scenario where a device needs more power than the port can supply, by shutting down the port or the device or whatever is necessary.

If you have a better explanation, I'm all ears.
 
What size HDD and what speed? 4200 is fine but 5400 is too much, this may need external power is my understanding.

It is a 5400 (ex macbook 80g HD). Its been running fine on the MacBook, I have had no hassels - even installed OSX on it and only running off 1 USB - so I would venture to say that it is fine and won't blow the USB port. It is a SATA drive. Its been running constantly on my Macbook now since 13th of April. BTW, its a ViPowER.. so I'm happy with it.

EDIT:**Me plugs in powered USB hub till I can read up more**
 
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adsl3g I think if you've made it this far you'll be fine. Not all 5400rpm drives use the same amount of power.
 
partially correct. your logic is sound, your experience and lack of parts to try out is holding you back...lets start


I don't care about what other people write on the internet.
you should read what the correct people have to say. the tricky part is finding the correct people.

I tested the same drive (5400rpm) on the same notebook with three different enclosures (yes, I have done this), get the following results:

1. Enclosure A spins up, spins down and doesn't do anything further.

2. Enclosure B spins up, spins for a few seconds, spins down and spins up again. Repeat repeat repeat.

3. Enclosure C spins up, stays spinned up but preduces nothing but errors in my logs. After a few seconds the errors stop, and after this I notice my notebook's USB is screwed.

Enclosures A, B, and C all work normally on a PC. Plugging either of the above enclosures with the 5400rpm drive into my Mac, OS X gives me an error telling me that my USB port cannot produce enough power for the attached device.

Replacing the 5400rpm drive with a 4200rpm, allows each of the enclosures to work normally on my notebook and on the Mac.

Plugging the 5400rpm drive, in any of the enclosures, into a powered USB hub, enables it to work properly.
your testing is thorough, given the parts you have to work with, however you do not have a broad enough range of parts to draw your conclusions form with 100% accuracy

This leads me to the following conclusions:
1. Some machines don't give enough power through a single USB port to power a 5400rpm hard disc.
partially correct. if we ignore the 5400rpm part of your statement I wouldve given you full marks. failing chipsets are via and sis (older versions...), they very often do not supply the proper 500ma per root hub the spec demands
2. Plugging in another USB cable for power (espcially when it's a notebook with only two USB ports) might be pushing the limits.
again, partially correct. for most notebooks plugging in a second usb cable for power will achieve 100% buggerall, as it is 500ma per root hub, not per port. And most laptop usb ports (the external ones) ar eon the same root hub...so the 500ma is shared amongst the external ports
3. Pushing the limits might damage your hardware (as is often the case with electronics).
the spin-up spin-down, cluck cluck cluck spin-up spin-down effect you noticed is the drive not getting enough power to spin the platters up. In that state, it is trying to request "more power" than the root hub can handle. however, I am sure you noticed the usb port is still working, smoke didnt come out.
4. Some hardware is designed to cope with a scenario where a device needs more power than the port can supply, by shutting down the port or the device or whatever is necessary.
correct. in fact, windows xp will handle this all by itself, and when it happens you get a message on your taskbar letting you know it has happened. if you dont get the message, then it didnt happen

If you have a better explanation, I'm all ears.
your conclusion was drawn along the lines of 4200rpm vs 5400rpm. the hassle is, the spindle speed of the hdd (in isolation) has got little to do with current draw. A hard drive demands its maximum current draw at spin up time..to keep the platters spinning requires little, but to get them spinning requires a lot. If you google the specs of the hard drive you will find pdf on the manufacturers site stating the current draw at spin up. You made the mistake of assuming a 4200rpm drive obviously draws less current than a 5400 rpm drive. This is incorrect as a blanket statement, it depends on the individual drive model. Modern drives draw less pwoer than older drives, so conversely I can show you a 7200rpm drive that works fine in external enclosures, yet a 4200rpm drive that I may have wont work. As stated before, dont make blanket statements based on two individual ahrd drives you happen to have tried.

An externally powered usb hub will solve all these problems.

P.S. to the firewire dude, ...firewire negotiates the transfer speed AND the voltage required, and can go up to 40v per port.
 
A Fascinating discussion. If I understand correctly the answer for a desk top is to go for Firewire, this appears to be best and safest option. Is this correct?
 
A Fascinating discussion. If I understand correctly the answer for a desk top is to go for Firewire, this appears to be best and safest option. Is this correct?
With better sustained read/write speeds I always try to. :)
 
adsl3g I think if you've made it this far you'll be fine. Not all 5400rpm drives use the same amount of power.

Roger I agree, I have red the forums on the Apple site and some people have had the warning message re the USB port when an external is connected even though it is a 2.5inch notebook drive. As I have stated I have never had that warning and I even boot up from my external sometimes.

I have also copied over 10 gig of music files to it in one go with no problem - my only worry at this stage is that the drive's power specs are 5v 1.0a - meaning it is rated at 1 amp and the USB port only supplies 500ma unless the 1.0a is maximum power and the drive only draws 500ma - anyway as stated it works fine - now if I can only source a firewire external enclosure locally.

I am sure cheap and nasty USB gadgets can kill a USB port but as Renamed stated, the OS will warn you if too much power is needed and shut the port down to prevent damage.
 
A Fascinating discussion. If I understand correctly the answer for a desk top is to go for Firewire, this appears to be best and safest option. Is this correct?

While the statement is correct and taking Bwana's comment into consideration, I think it depends on what you want to put on the external - using it for installation of programs - storage of downloaded and program files - should be fine on USB - if you intend running programs or videos off it then FW is much better.
 
Renamed, I stand corrected. I did make the assumption that 5400rpm drives are neccessarily more power hungry than 4200rpm drives.

I would like to point out, however, that the three examples I mentioned were hypothetical and a mere extraction from everything I've seen. I used to work for a company that did IT support for SOHO and SME businesses, and over about six years I have probably returned more than a hundred notebooks. Half of them were HPs that simply didn't last, half of them were damaged in one way or another by people trying to power external hard drives/coffee heaters/reding lamps/whatever from USB.

Also, when I tried messing about with unpowered encolusres it was around the time when 5400rpm notebook drives just became available (and my notebook had only one USB port;) ), and back then they generally were using more current than 4200rpm drives. Although I certainly agree that this is no longer the case.

failing chipsets are via and sis (older versions...),

Most of the chipsets I've seen fail on notebooks were Intel or NEC but I don't think that's relevant. How the manufacturer implements the chipset has a huge influence on how it works in the end. You get nVidia cards that are fantastic and you get nVidia cards with exactly the same chipset that are unstable and perform poorly....

they very often do not supply the proper 500ma per root hub the spec demands

This is where a big part of the problem lies. A lot of notebooks have only one root hub. And on many notebooks some of the internal devices, like wireless, bluetooth, card readers, even CD/DVD writers are USB devices. So many of them already have a huge power demand on the USB controller even before you plug something in..

Remember that just because the USB specs say it has to be able to deliver 500ma per root hub, it's not a given that all manufacturers are going to deliver products that actually do that. It's the same as with PC power supplies. How many 300W powersupplies are there on the market that can really supply a constant 300W? I remember reading a PSU group test (on Anandtech or one of those sites) where they tested exactly how power supplies lived up to their claims. Not one! Not one could deliverd as much power as it claimed. One of the units on test actually caught fire long before it reached its specified output.

the spin-up spin-down, cluck cluck cluck spin-up spin-down effect you noticed is the drive not getting enough power to spin the platters up. In that state, it is trying to request "more power" than the root hub can handle.

This is exactly what I was referring to. When this happens, some of the better enclosures power down the drive, but most don't.

however, I am sure you noticed the usb port is still working, smoke didnt come out.

I'll give you this - I've only ever seen smoke come out of a USB port once, when the USB modem hanging off it got hit by lightning.

But I have certainly seen many damaged/dead ones, hence my posting. I'll stick by what I said. If the hardware is not made to protect itself, it can get damaged if the power demands placed on it is too great. I've seen this enough times. While there's no telling what clients plug into their machines that they're not admitting to, I can certainly speak for my own notebook: I've only ever plugged two things into it that draws power off the USB bus: my mouse and a notebook disc. I know it's not the mouse that did it...
 
I use a WD Passport drive (5400 rpm) on and IBM T43. It seems to work fine of all the USB ports I've tried so far (4 separate machines, 1 laptop, 3 Desktops). Am I just lucky or am I likely to experience problems in future?
 
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