President Hugo Chavez losing it?

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GavinMannion

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Why is it that all socialistic leaders end up being tyrants and dictators?

I have never agreed with their philosophy but I do find it very strange that they all seem to go mad in the end...

I think the only thing that has kept the UK in one piece is because New Labour isn't really socialist even though they claim to be..

"Enemies of the homeland, particularly those behind the scenes, I will give you a name: Globovision. Greetings, gentlemen of Globovision, you should watch where you are going," Mr Chavez said.
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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/6702965.stm

I mean screw freedom of the press and all that Chavez, as long as you get your two pennies out of any deal you are happy...

So could one of our local socialists please explain to me what is going on in Venezuela?
 
This would be the same television station that actively tried to subvert the constitution of Venezuela during the brief coup of Chavez's legitimate and democratic presidency, not so?
 
That's an easy one to answer. The basic premise of socialism is that human beings are either weak, or evil, or both, and need a strong government to help/curtail such people. Socialists believe the only through a government with absolute power, will the evils of humanity be stopped, and the oppression of the weak be undone. Of course, socialists are not the smartest bunch and they do not conceive that a government is actually a collection of these weak, and/or evil, humans, just like them.

Thus power-mad individuals can rise to power on the backs of the flawed conviction. This is the reason that all, not most, of the socialist leaders will tend towards "madness" in the end.

Socialism is evil beyond any measure. More destroyed lives, suffering, and deaths have been caused by socialism than most of the other philosophies combined. The exceptions are islam and african tribalism.

In history, the only philosophy that has proven to alleviate suffering and poverty, is capitalism.
 
BandwidthAddict said:
In history, the only philosophy that has proven to alleviate suffering and poverty, is capitalism.
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Only because we have yet to invent anything better, and I move that New Socialism, ie, the majority governments of Europe (barring these latest elections) were the new wave and it is through them that we have seen any "true" advancement in Europe.
New social movements
 
BandwidthAddict said:
That's an easy one to answer. The basic premise of socialism is that human beings are either weak, or evil, or both, and need a strong government to help/curtail such people. Socialists believe the only through a government with absolute power, will the evils of humanity be stopped, and the oppression of the weak be undone. Of course, socialists are not the smartest bunch and they do not conceive that a government is actually a collection of these weak, and/or evil, humans, just like them.

Thus power-mad individuals can rise to power on the backs of the flawed conviction. This is the reason that all, not most, of the socialist leaders will tend towards "madness" in the end.

Socialism is evil beyond any measure. More destroyed lives, suffering, and deaths have been caused by socialism than most of the other philosophies combined. The exceptions are islam and african tribalism.

In history, the only philosophy that has proven to alleviate suffering and poverty, is capitalism.
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Yeah that's prety much it, thanks.
 
kilo39 said:
Only because we have yet to invent anything better, and I move that New Socialism, ie, the majority governments of Europe (barring these latest elections) were the new wave and it is through them that we have seen any "true" advancement in Europe.
New social movements
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I have not laughed so hard in a while. Thanks. New socialism .. lol.

Can you state how the "new" socialism differs fundamentally from the "old" socialism? All these socialisms have, at their core, a victim - basically I just see different flavours of socialism with the same basic premise and flaws.
 
Xarog said:
This would be the same television station that actively tried to subvert the constitution of Venezuela during the brief coup of Chavez's legitimate and democratic presidency, not so?
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Hmm no idea, please explain more?

What did they honestly do to deserve having the freedom of press ripped from the entire nation? It must have been really bad....

Kilo, correct me if I am wrong but isn't most of Europe electing right wing organisations now? I presume they have been unhappy with these new socialists and instead of rioting and destroying their towns they have had a knee jerk reaction and shot over to the other side.
 
GavinMannion, more on RCTV:
Coup Co-Conspirators as Free-Speech Martyrs [FAIR]
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised (documentary)[Wikipedia]

There is more to this than Chavez simply deciding he didn't like the station. From the FAIR article linked above:
The Venezuelan government is basing its denial of license on RCTV's involvement in the 2002 coup, not on the station's criticisms of or political opposition to the government. Many American pundits and some human rights spokespersons have confused the issue by claiming the action is based merely on political differences, failing to note that Venezuela's media, including its commercial broadcasters, are still among the most vigorously dissident on the planet.
...
As FAIR's magazine Extra! argued last November, "Were a similar event to happen in the U.S., and TV journalists and executives were caught conspiring with coup plotters, it’s doubtful they would stay out of jail, let alone be allowed to continue to run television stations, as they have in Venezuela."
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Xarog said:
This would be the same television station that actively tried to subvert the constitution of Venezuela during the brief coup of Chavez's legitimate and democratic presidency, not so?
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Yes ... according to the Chavez administration. There's actually a whole lot more to that story and this appears to just be delayed revenge... read a whole expose on Chavez not so long ago - I'll see if I can dig up some of the source
 
Granted put all the coup plotters in jail but by closing down the most popular tv channel in the country he is just showing the world he is yet another dictator...

If he really wanted justice he would have taken up his grievances through the court against the people not the channel.
 
BandwidthAddict said:
I have not laughed so hard in a while. Thanks. New socialism .. lol.

Can you state how the "new" socialism differs fundamentally from the "old" socialism? All these socialisms have, at their core, a victim - basically I just see different flavours of socialism with the same basic premise and flaws.
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New Socialism acknowledges the role of capitalism (which old socialism didn't,) ie, it is only through capitalism that you can have 'new socialism.'

GavinMannion said:
Kilo, correct me if I am wrong but isn't most of Europe electing right wing organisations now? I presume they have been unhappy with these new socialists and instead of rioting and destroying their towns they have had a knee jerk reaction and shot over to the other side.
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Yes unfortunately (they have forgotten the terrors of rightwing rule.)

Racism is inherent (whereas it should be a state of mind.)
 
kilo39 said:
Yes unfortunately (they have forgotten the terrors of rightwing rule.)

Racism is inherent (whereas it should be a state of mind.)
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Clearly haven't forgotten the terrors of leftwing rule :D

Some info on our hero of the left.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/americas/05/28/venezuela.protest/index.html

We have arrived at totalitarianism," said Marcel Granier, president of Empresas 1BC, which owns RCTV.

"We will reorganize and continue working. One is beginning a fight -- not violent, but active, very active."

Granier accused Chavez of being "afraid of free thought, of opinion, of criticism."

The closing of the station will affect "more than 200 journalists, 3,000 workers and the entire Venezuelan society," the station said in a statement posted on its Web site.

Last week, the U.S. Senate passed a resolution condemning the decision to shut down the station.
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Hugo Chavez Suggests Holding Power For 25 Years

Chavez may enact laws by decree
 
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GavinMannion said:
Granted put all the coup plotters in jail but by closing down the most popular tv channel in the country he is just showing the world he is yet another dictator...

If he really wanted justice he would have taken up his grievances through the court against the people not the channel.
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The channel is collectively owned by (some of) the same people that supported the coup. Since the channel and the people running the channel knowingly lied to the masses in order to aid the coup attempt, the channel itself is as guilty as the conspirators.

Why should such a channel, that betrays the public trust, be allowed to continue airing day in and day out? Free speech is a double edged swords, you have a responsibility regarding WHAT you say, and that channel abused that freedom and ignored that responsibility.

BandwidthAddict said:
Socialism is evil beyond any measure. More destroyed lives, suffering, and deaths have been caused by socialism than most of the other philosophies combined. The exceptions are islam and african tribalism.

In history, the only philosophy that has proven to alleviate suffering and poverty, is capitalism.
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Rubbish. Capitalism profits the rich at the expense of the poor. The industrial revolution in Britain generated an enormous amount of wealth. And yet children were employed while being paid a pittance. Hardly the rosy picture you claim it to be.

Once again, America is trying to operate an extremely liberal (capitalistic) economic system... and the wealth of the country is improving, but the number of people who fall under the poverty line goes up every single day.

The ONLY system in history to alleviate poverty is a capatalist system with a strong social system imposed by the government.
 
Not every socialist leader becomes a tyrant. And what about capitalist tyrants? Can we blame that on capitalism?
 
Xarog said:
Rubbish. Capitalism profits the rich at the expense of the poor. The industrial revolution in Britain generated an enormous amount of wealth. And yet children were employed while being paid a pittance. Hardly the rosy picture you claim it to be.

The ONLY system in history to alleviate poverty is a capatalist system with a strong social system imposed by the government.
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Couldn't have put it better myself.

Thanks
 
Xarog said:
The channel is collectively owned by (some of) the same people that supported the coup. Since the channel and the people running the channel knowingly lied to the masses in order to aid the coup attempt, the channel itself is as guilty as the conspirators.

Why should such a channel, that betrays the public trust, be allowed to continue airing day in and day out? Free speech is a double edged swords, you have a responsibility regarding WHAT you say, and that channel abused that freedom and ignored that responsibility.
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Spoken like true Propaganda, if what you say is entirely true why was nothing done about it until 5 years later?

Why have charges not been filed, and why are the people responsible not in court?

An inanimate object cannot be held guilty or innocent, closing the studio is exactly the same as our friend bob who closed down all the independent newspapers for treason...

Would you still be so comfortable if Mbeki closed down the M&G or DSTV because they insulted him or asked for a new president?

Chavez has no idea what freedom of speech is and by the sound of it neither do you.

noxibox said:
Not every socialist leader becomes a tyrant. And what about capitalist tyrants? Can we blame that on capitalism?
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Which socialist leaders don't?
 
Spoken like true Propaganda, if what you say is entirely true why was nothing done about it until 5 years later?
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Ask Chavez.

Why have charges not been filed, and why are the people responsible not in court?
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Why did we have the TRC commision instead of dragging all suspected collaboraters etc. to court?

Sometimes the interests of national unity take priority over jailing one or two morons.

An inanimate object cannot be held guilty or innocent, closing the studio is exactly the same as our friend bob who closed down all the independent newspapers for treason...
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Only because you choose to (erroneously) see it that way.

In truth the owners of the station collaborated to re-institute a political system to their liking. Like I said, they abused the public trust and shutting down their means to do that is not at all unreasonable.

Would you still be so comfortable if Mbeki closed down the M&G or DSTV because they insulted him or asked for a new president?
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Of course not. But then, that's not what happened during the coup, either.

I wonder if you'd still be so gung-ho if DSTV started broadcasting child-porn one day.

Chavez has no idea what freedom of speech is and by the sound of it neither do you.
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Ja, shutting down a particular news station is the same thing as curtailing all free speech. :rolleyes:

Go do the research on what really happened, it's obvious from your posts that you haven't done so yet. Hell, it's the last day of the month; unless you're on prepaid you've got cap to burn.
 
Xarog said:
Ask Chavez.
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He won't answer my calls :D

Xarog said:
Why did we have the TRC commision instead of dragging all suspected collaboraters etc. to court?
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The TRC was pretty much a court, it was open to the public.

Xarog said:
Sometimes the interests of national unity take priority over jailing one or two morons.
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Yeah tell that to the rioting citizens who are now getting shot by the army

Xarog said:
In truth the owners of the station collaborated to re-institute a political system to their liking. Like I said, they abused the public trust and shutting down their means to do that is not at all unreasonable.
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That would be democracy would it not? You don't see FOX News trying to get the communists elected and they don't get closed down ;)

Xarog said:
I wonder if you'd still be so gung-ho if DSTV started broadcasting child-porn one day.
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honestly I would expect DSTV not to get closed down, I would expect hte child porn to be removed and the people responsible to be handed over to the courts. But I see no reason why the studio would have to be shut.

Xarog said:
Ja, shutting down a particular news station is the same thing as curtailing all free speech. :rolleyes:
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No it's the same thing as curtailing the free speech you don't like... oh wait

Xarog said:
Go do the research on what really happened, it's obvious from your posts that you haven't done so yet. Hell, it's the last day of the month; unless you're on prepaid you've got cap to burn.
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Not capped :D, I have researched and it looks like [-]Mugabe[/-] Chavez has let the power go to his head and has now become a typical dictator. He can't handle the pressure of the media so he shuts it down.

Citizens get upset so he sends in the army.. Nice guy
 
GavinMannion said:
The TRC was pretty much a court, it was open to the public.
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With geniunely politically motivated crimes being pardoned.

Yeah tell that to the rioting citizens who are now getting shot by the army
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And just think how much worse it COULD have been if Chavez decided to try and hunt down everyone involved in the coup.

That would be democracy would it not? You don't see FOX News trying to get the communists elected and they don't get closed down ;)
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Yeah, probably because their line is largely favourable to the US govt. As a side question, do you see Al Jazeera being broadcast in the 'states?

honestly I would expect DSTV not to get closed down, I would expect the child porn to be removed and the people responsible to be handed over to the courts. But I see no reason why the studio would have to be shut.
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What if it was the only way to stop the child porn being distributed without threatening a civil war?

No it's the same thing as curtailing the free speech you don't like... oh wait
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No it's not. Shouting fire in a crowded room is against the law even though it's a restriction of free speech. Free speech HAS limitations, it's not some carte blanche license.

Not capped :D, I have researched and it looks like [-]Mugabe[/-] Chavez has let the power go to his head and has now become a typical dictator. He can't handle the pressure of the media so he shuts it down.
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Then how come you had no idea about the details surrounding the coup?
 
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