Gautrain will now cost R25.5Bn - ex inflation

[BobbyMac]

he minister of transport, Jeff Radebe, has disclosed that the price of the Gautrain project will be R25.5bn.Coupled with the incoming Toll road initiative, this province really knows how to waste money ;D
http://www.fin24.co.za/articles/default/display_article.aspx?ArticleId=1518-1786_2216198

[sox63]

Personally, I cant wait for this project to be completed, I will one of the first in line for tickets. I'm sick and tired of traffic in the Midrand area.

Any indication on ticket prices yet? At this point I would pay anything!!

[antowan]

I don't care how much it costs. As long as they do it and more! We need public transport at all cost. The only organization who can fund extremely expensive efforts like these is government. It is their job to build these things private enterprise cannot fund and then allow private companies to run it and create jobs ontop of.

It is all good. It can cost 40Bn for all I care. :)

[icyrus]

We do need it desperately, but it is unfortunate that these costs are escalating like this. We seriously need to sort out our education system - which is the most critical problem we are facing - and being too free with the money elsewhere doesn't help.

There are some concerning parts in the article tho:


there is no breakdown of costs for individual elements as in a traditional type contract with a list of quantities and related prices.


"It is not possible to provide separate costs."

Why?


The minister said, that Bombela, the winning contractor, did propose a reduction in the number of buses with an increase in the number of parking spaces at certain stations.

How are these interchangeable?

[JK8]

Personally, I cant wait for this project to be completed, I will one of the first in line for tickets. I'm sick and tired of traffic in the Midrand area.

Any indication on ticket prices yet? At this point I would pay anything!!

So how do you get to Allandale?

[bwana]

Shock horror - a project that is going to come in over budget - that would never happen overseas would it? :rolleyes:

Sorry, but I think the country needs the Gautrain and plenty more projects like it.

[sox63]

So how do you get to Allandale?

I try to stay away from it as much as I can during peak times. I use the R55 to get Sandton. And use New Road if I have to go to Pretoria.

[Luf]

Hell yeah^^^ The Gautrain is going to be great, think of how many jobs thats going to create - If they spend 25bill and create 100 jobs im happy! Cant wait till it is completed and eventually expanded.

[feo]

Another vote from me that I don't care about the cost, they don't wanna physically add more lanes to the highway to ease congestion so I'll settle for a high speed luxury train instead, thank you very much. :D

[vespax]

I would like to see a really fast, modern train between CT and Pretoria (it can stop in the normal spots along the way).

Alleviate some of the air congestion that is building up above SA.

[feo]

Hows about a train connecting CT, PE, DBN, PTA and JHB, that'd be sweet. But we all know half the population would start PMSing at that thought because of cost.

[sox63]

I would like to see a really fast, modern train between CT and Pretoria (it can stop in the normal spots along the way).

Alleviate some of the air congestion that is building up above SA.

Imagine a MAGLEV train between the two!:D

Its fast, and you still get to see the scenery!

[JK8]

I try to stay away from it as much as I can during peak times. I use the R55 to get Sandton. And use New Road if I have to go to Pretoria.

No I meant, get to Allandale coz thats where the Midrand train station is right?

[sox63]

No I meant, get to Allandale coz thats where the Midrand train station is right?

Oh, I live just off the intersection of the R55 with Allandale, so it would be quite easy to get there. I look forward to just parking my car and riding everywhere I usually get too.:D

Lets not forget the Airport won't be such a hassle to get to on time anymore.;)

[stoke]

At least we're getting something for the billions spent this time.
I wonder how they plan to add more stations to the line?

[vespax]

Hows about a train connecting CT, PE, DBN, PTA and JHB, that'd be sweet. But we all know half the population would start PMSing at that thought because of cost.

How would you get that train through the garden route? :p Knysna is a headache as it is on the N2.

I was just being conservative with a straight line north / south, but hey, why not connect all major cities in the country.

The airports are a real pain in the a$$ these days. :mad:

[Syndyre]

Shock horror - a project that is going to come in over budget - that would never happen overseas would it? :rolleyes:

Sorry, but I think the country needs the Gautrain and plenty more projects like it.

We definitely do, no question about it.

[BobbyMac]

I don't have a problem with the train, I have a problem with it coming in more than R20 BILLION Rand over budget. I have a problem with the transport minister shutting down OTHER projects (like the monorail for example) because HE was not consulted.

Just some perspective:
In 2000, the Gautrain was proposed with an estimate pegged at R3.5 - 4 billion.
In 2003, the cost was further inflated to around R7 Billion.
In 2005 the figure was massively expanded to R20 Billion.
In 2006 the final figure was promised to be R21.9 Billion, and now
in 2007 the figure is once AGAIN inflated to another record number, this time R25.5 Bn

Now, considering that the tax man is footing the bill, and that this project was not even open to public discussion and there were NO discussions held on this project in the Provincial Legislature before it was put out to tender, I think we as taxpayers have the right to be peeved every time the costs are further escalated.

80 Kilometers @ R25.5Bn = R318 Million odd per Kilometer. Wow.

[dlk001]

Personally, I cant wait for this project to be completed, I will one of the first in line for tickets. I'm sick and tired of traffic in the Midrand area.

Me too. Its an Engineering highlight of South Africa which is gonna generate many expertise afterwards. The industry needed such a project!

[JK8]

Oh, I live just off the intersection of the R55 with Allandale, so it would be quite easy to get there. I look forward to just parking my car and riding everywhere I usually get too.:D

Lets not forget the Airport won't be such a hassle to get to on time anymore.;)

Oh thats cool, but the stations far for some people, would they have to leave their cars at the station? Would there be costs for leaving it there?
Not sure how it will work.

But ye Ill use it!:)

[dlk001]

Shock horror - a project that is going to come in over budget - that would never happen overseas would it? :rolleyes:

Sorry, but I think the country needs the Gautrain and plenty more projects like it.

Its no shock at all especially for a complex project like this. Its like a Shaft Sinking project in mining. A 6 months delay during feasibility studies could up the cost by billions of rands.

[BobbyMac]

Its no shock at all especially for a complex project like this. Its like a Shaft Sinking project in mining. A 6 months delay during feasibility studies could up the cost by billions of rands.
Not R20 Billion worth inside 7 years ;)

[dlk001]

Not R20 Billion worth inside 7 years ;)

Yes its possible. In 2002 prefeasibility studies, the Gautrain was to cost R7 billion. Its not unusual for a multidisciplinary project of this nature that by the time the project reaches Bankability Stage, the costs have escalated that much.

[BobbyMac]

Yes its possible. In 2002 prefeasibility studies, the Gautrain was to cost R7 billion. Its not unusual for a multidisciplinary project of this nature that by the time the project reaches Bankability Stage, the costs have escalated that much.
Not only is it very unusual for a project to go 365% over budget, it is economically detrimental.

[stoke]

...80 Kilometers @ R25.5Bn = R318 Million odd per Kilometer. Wow.:eek: :eek: :eek:
That is excessive.

[icyrus]

Does anyone know why they say they cannot give a cost breakdown?

[dlk001]

Not only is it very unusual for a project to go 365% over budget, it is economically detrimental.

Time will tell and the Gautrain, just like the Channel Tunnel, will last longer than we will live. Unfortunately, the economic benefits of the Gautrain will be debatable forever because the off spins are just so huge.

The South African Institute of Rock Engineers and South African Institute of Geotechnical Engineers normally have symposiums around the Project. The amount of skills being acquired by these engineers is just amazing and will be very important for the success of future SA infrastructural projects. That is just something one cannot quantify easily but certainly its worth billions of rands to the country's future economy.

[McSack]

Does anyone know why they say they cannot give a cost breakdown?

Because then the we'd be able to see how many little shelf companies started by government ministers and their friends and family are getting paid large amounts of cash for very little contribution to the project

[Syndyre]

Time will tell and the Gautrain, just like the Channel Tunnel, will last longer than we will live. Unfortunately, the economic benefits of the Gautrain will be debatable forever because the off spins are just so huge.

The South African Institute of Rock Engineers and South African Institute of Geotechnical Engineers normally have symposiums around the Project. The amount of skills being acquired by these engineers is just amazing and will be very important for the success of future SA infrastructural projects. That is just something one cannot quantify easily but certainly its worth billions of rands to the country's future economy.

How much of the work is being done by local engineers and how much by overseas engineers on contract?

[feo]

How much of the work is being done by local engineers and how much by overseas engineers on contract?
You read my mind. ;)

[dlk001]

How much of the work is being done by local engineers and how much by overseas engineers on contract?

I can only speak for local Civil Eng firms. Just about every big firm I know is involved in the project. Each of those firms is sub-contracting to smaller firms.

There are many SA companies like SRK, VKE, ATKINS which have deployed staff from their overseas offices to SA for the project. Also, in many cases, the local SA offices would work with their respective overseas offices. Its very complex and difficult to quantify how much work is done locally or overseas in that sense.

Its similar to my company. We are a local office for a Minnesota firm. They do work for DeBeers and we do work American contracts too. The skills are interchangeable.

[Inertia]

http://www.gautrain.co.za/index.php?ct=80&fid=7&click=8&parent=19&referer=0,36

In case people thought nothing was happening ^

[bodhi]

I can only speak for local Civil Eng firms. Just about every big firm I know is involved in the project. Each of those firms is sub-contracting to smaller firms.

There are many SA companies like SRK, VKE, ATKINS which have deployed staff from their overseas offices to SA for the project. Also, in many cases, the local SA offices would work with their respective overseas offices. Its very complex and difficult to quantify how much work is done locally or overseas in that sense.

Its similar to my company. We are a local office for a Minnesota firm. They do work for DeBeers and we do work American contracts too. The skills are interchangeable.

Just wondering , any contributions made by Industrial engineers to the Gautrain project ?

[Syndyre]

I can only speak for local Civil Eng firms. Just about every big firm I know is involved in the project. Each of those firms is sub-contracting to smaller firms.

There are many SA companies like SRK, VKE, ATKINS which have deployed staff from their overseas offices to SA for the project. Also, in many cases, the local SA offices would work with their respective overseas offices. Its very complex and difficult to quantify how much work is done locally or overseas in that sense.

Its similar to my company. We are a local office for a Minnesota firm. They do work for DeBeers and we do work American contracts too. The skills are interchangeable.

Thanks, seems like there's a lot of local involvement anyway.

[NoADSLyet]

Good Gawd, somebody in government must be pocketing big billions!

[dlk001]

Just wondering , any contributions made by Industrial engineers to the Gautrain project ?

From the operational engineering point of view, I definitely think so. I'm only exposed to the civils work. I do hope they have industrial engineers involved in other aspects. Its hard to find that one person who knows every aspect of this project.