Official 2011 Rugby World Cup Thread

sandmanm34 said:
Australia felt the repercussions against NZ in the semi's though cause the week before Pocock was effectively getting away with murder, this week Joubert blew the s hit out of him and rendered his illegal tactics mute. Must be confusing for the players...
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Yes, but Henry & the AB's appreciated Joubert's efforts.

You may have seen that Joubert got the final, no doubt partly due to positive comments from all concerned.
 
Jola said:
Many wrongs don't make it right !

That is a red card offence, and rightly so. However, I agree that it spoils the game.

IMO, if no injury, then :

1) Player sent off for duration of game, but may be replaced after 10 minutes.

2) Penalty try, irrespective of location of spear tackle.

If the player is injured then standard red card.

This type of tackle is too serious for a simple penalty and yellow card.
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Agree but not with sending a player off. 14 vs 15 creates an unsafe environment for the 14... Defeats the purpose. The card system was implemented in an attempt to stamp out dirty play and make the game safer. It's become counter productive. Scrums are historically the source of the most severe rugby injuries. With a forward in the bin your scrums become inherently dangerous.

Censorship should be in the form of a penalty try and/or a penalty in a kickable position. Hell, even suspend the guilty player after the game, which in turn carries a monetary penalty for said player. Ban the player for life if he continues to infringe, 5 reds = lifetime ban, 10 yellows = lifetime ban...
 
The last time I checked rugby is a physical game. There was no malacious intent from Warburton. The french dude didn't even cry.
 
Jola said:
Watch it again, was just luck that he wasn't dead.

Those tackles just cannot be allowed.
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haha, dead like BOD... He milked it, Clerc did. Yes he was lucky to escape serious injury but he made a meal of it and again later on in the game in an kick and chase scenario...
 
sandmanm34 said:
Agree, the tackle was dangerous! Would never try dispute that! But IMHO not worthy of the red...

Warburton's red card effectively ended the contest. That Wales got so close to winning is a tribute to them and a reflection on how s hit this French team really is.

Allain could quite easily have given a yellow card plus the penalty and both his employees and the viewing public wouldn't have questioned the decision. That he gave red changed the entire dynamic of the game and IMHO completely spoiled the occasion.

Folk are saying the rules are the rules and the occasion should have no bearing on the refs decision. I'm saying the paying public and the popularity of the sport are what enables people to make a living out of playing rugby. The world cup is a massive advertisement for the sport so when a ref shows over exuberance, acts impulsively without consulting with his touch judges, immediately red cards a player who has a reputation for playing within the rules of the sport and ruins what effectively was shaping into an amazing contest, the sport as a spectacle has become tarnished and with it its popularity.

Red carding or yellow carding the player after the dangerous tackle is not going to prevent the severe injury. That's why I consider it counter productive. Censorship needs to come but not by sending the player off the field as this changes the dynamic of the contest to the point where it now becomes potentially dangerous for the 14 playing 15.

The nature of the punishment needs to be considered:

If a yellow card is issued to the defending team in the red zone, the attacking team should be awarded a penalty try.

If a yellow card is issued any where other than the redzone the guilty party/team should concede a penalty at the prejudiced parties area of choice. So if they want to kick it over from right in front so be it. Either way the infringement results in points.

Red card results in a penalty try and a 10 minute binning of the guilty player but 14 vs 15 has to be the exception to the rule rather than the norm.

5 red cards incurred by a player equals a lifetime ban from the sport.

10 yellow cards incurred by a player equals a lifetime ban from the sport.
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Whilst I agree with the sentiment that a game of rugby was effectively ruined, the call was correct. And Wales being out is due to Warburton. He stuffed up big time. It happens but he just wasn't professional enough.

As for the game becoming dangerous for the 14 remaining players - well, I am surprised that Wales didn't fiddle the front row and end up with old man rules - uncontested scrums.

The card after the event will not stop THAT injury should it arise. But it should make players think twice before pounding into someone. Hence, me saying that Warburton wasn't professional enough.

Downside is that professionalism can cost you a game. South Africa got dumped because they are professional. They played the game within the laws - pity the ref didn't.

Slightly aside - did Sunny Bill Williams get cited? He also put in a nasty shoulder charge and got carded. Mind you, Vickerman did his best last week and nothing happened to him. Makes you wonder what would have happened if it was Bakkies - he got 6 weeks didn't he?
 
SinghDude said:
The last time I checked rugby is a physical game. There was no malacious intent from Warburton. The french dude didn't even cry.
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Agreed. He went in hard and momentum sent Clerc up and down. There's no way Sam was trying to intentionally lift him up and drive him into the ground. Accidental, yellow card and penalty thanks for coming... But red??!!! Over reaction!!!
 
sandmanm34 said:
Agree but not with sending a player off. 14 vs 15 creates an unsafe environment for the 14... Defeats the purpose. The card system was implemented in an attempt to stamp out dirty play and make the game safer. It's become counter productive. Scrums are historically the source of the most severe rugby injuries. With a forward in the bin your scrums become inherently dangerous.

Censorship should be in the form of a penalty try and/or a penalty in a kickable position. Hell, even suspend the guilty player after the game, which in turn carries a monetary penalty for said player. Ban the player for life if he continues to infringe, 5 reds = lifetime ban, 10 yellows = lifetime ban...
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There is a simple way to makes the scrums safer - they should have 'equal' mass. Okay - it can never be exactly equal but you could do it within a certain percentage. That Welsh scrum was about 70kg heavier than the French one at the start of the game and it was fine. Warburton doesn't weigh 140kg so the swing the other way should have been fine too.

Or, you could tell the French that at packing down time they get to move a loose forward into the back line.
 
sandmanm34 said:
Yip, the difference is the IRB came out with a specific directive prior to the RWC that illegal tackles be dealt with in the harshest fashion. There was also mention made of offside being heavily policed as well as rucks and mauls!!!!!!!!

Incredible how there no repercussions for Bryces's attempt at blowing the SA/Aus game so what of the IRB directives??

Australia felt the repercussions against NZ in the semi's though cause the week before Pocock was effectively getting away with murder, this week Joubert blew the s hit out of him and rendered his illegal tactics mute. Must be confusing for the players...
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I think Pocock got pinged twice. It shouldn't have been confusing for him in the slightest - he cheats. He knows he cheats. And now he got called on it.
 
Albereth said:
There is a simple way to makes the scrums safer - they should have 'equal' mass. Okay - it can never be exactly equal but you could do it within a certain percentage. That Welsh scrum was about 70kg heavier than the French one at the start of the game and it was fine. Warburton doesn't weigh 140kg so the swing the other way should have been fine too.

Or, you could tell the French that at packing down time they get to move a loose forward into the back line.
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Scrummaging is more about technique and timing then mass. Moving players in and out of a scrum formation would make it more unstable. When a prop or hooker gets sent off you cannot scrum effectively at all so usually a substitute hooker or prop comes on and a flank goes off so your front row is kept in tact but when your 7 man scrum is going backwards that is potentially dangerous so really one should be taking off a wing for the extra forward.
 
sandmanm34 said:
Scrummaging is more about technique and timing then mass. Moving players in and out of a scrum formation would make it more unstable. When a prop or hooker gets sent off you cannot scrum effectively at all so usually a substitute hooker or prop comes on and a flank goes off so your front row is kept in tact but when your 7 man scrum is going backwards that is potentially dangerous so really one should be taking off a wing for the extra forward.
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Yes, Wales made their own scrums more dangerous by not swapping Roberts for a proper forward.
 
SaladCharger said:
Oh, the look on his face the second time said it all. Some players think getting away with cheating gives you an advantage. I wouldn't want him in my side. This is where consistent refereeing can really seperate the men from the boys. NZ played a pretty clean game and came away looking awesome on the day. I was never a big fan of Butch James in his younger day for his frequent shoulder charges, IMO a player like that is a liability despite their skill.

Winning at sport is supposed to make fans proud. Playing a clean game just adds that much more to the value.
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I agree - I would rather the Springboks lost than resorted to being underhand.

Oh wait, that's happened :)
 
SaladCharger said:
Oh, the look on his face the second time said it all. Some players think getting away with cheating gives you an advantage. I wouldn't want him in my side. This is where consistent refereeing can really seperate the men from the boys. NZ played a pretty clean game and came away looking awesome on the day. I was never a big fan of Butch James in his younger day for his frequent shoulder charges, IMO a player like that is a liability despite their skill.

Winning at sport is supposed to make fans proud. Playing a clean game just adds that much more to the value.
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I think those 'not supporting your own body weight' laws need to be relooked at. Those Aussies dive into rucks to try and clean out. You'll need to watch it to see what I am on about but take a look and answer if any of them could be supporting their own weight? They might not be on the ground but if you removed all the other players, could they support themselves in the position that they are in?

To be fair, it isn't just them.

So simplify and just say no hands in. The ball may not be played by hand until it is out of the ruck. No scrummie picking it up - it must be played with the feet. It won't stop pick and drives - it'll mean that the ball will have to be placed clear of the last feet.
 
Albereth said:
I think those 'not supporting your own body weight' laws need to be relooked at. Those Aussies dive into rucks to try and clean out. You'll need to watch it to see what I am on about but take a look and answer if any of them could be supporting their own weight? They might not be on the ground but if you removed all the other players, could they support themselves in the position that they are in?

To be fair, it isn't just them.

So simplify and just say no hands in. The ball may not be played by hand until it is out of the ruck. No scrummie picking it up - it must be played with the feet. It won't stop pick and drives - it'll mean that the ball will have to be placed clear of the last feet.
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For the last 170 years the law makers have been trying to regulate what happens around the ruck and mauls. The harder they try the more hilarious it becomes.

The only way to accurately assess whether a player is supporting his own body weight or not is with a scale under his hands. Ludicrous rule as is the going off your feet rule. At any given time there 2 or 3 players off their feet in and around a ruck...
 
sandmanm34 said:
For the last 170 years the law makers have been trying to regulate what happens around the ruck and mauls. The harder they try the more hilarious it becomes.

The only way to accurately assess whether a player is supporting his own body weight or not is with a scale under his hands. Ludicrous rule as is the going off your feet rule. At any given time there 2 or 3 players off their feet in and around a ruck...
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It also leads to a multitude of interpretations, as nobody can get used to a particular set of rules/regulations.
 
sandmanm34 said:
For the last 170 years the law makers have been trying to regulate what happens around the ruck and mauls. The harder they try the more hilarious it becomes.

The only way to accurately assess whether a player is supporting his own body weight or not is with a scale under his hands. Ludicrous rule as is the going off your feet rule. At any given time there 2 or 3 players off their feet in and around a ruck...
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Yep - and I can't help but think that the rules were changed because South Africa became awesome at sorting out whoever was on the wrong side of the ball in a ruck. A certain Richard Bath, if memory serves, used to get on the wrong side of the ball until a match in which he ended up needing a new jersey.

But mountaineering is now a thing of the past.
 
sandmanm34 said:
haha, dead like BOD... He milked it, Clerc did. Yes he was lucky to escape serious injury but he made a meal of it and again later on in the game in an kick and chase scenario...
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I agree, he seriously milked it. Was holding the top of his head when that didn't even touch the ground. He also jumped up the moment the red was given. Bringing soccer tactics into rugby and I don't like it at all.

My beef with the call is that it was totally accidental. The guy slipped out of his grasp. It was a yellow and not a red card offense.
 
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