MootWUG in PTA area

[DenSweep]

StellarWUG! met n HS oppie maan glo ek nie iemand sal sukkel met LOS issues nie. Net n vraag though, sal n 27db grid genoeg wees?

 

[rebel998]

Vra die nuwe WUGger, hy weet als.

 

[mossie]

lol

 

[protzkrog]

Your method of running a club (yes, you are running a club) is very unusual, and given that you've got several hundred members, I'd say reckless and in no ones best interests.

Yes, its VERY unusual, does it work - YES, does it work awesomely well - YES. There are the admin members, they sort out the routing and ips, AND THATS IT, they have no more say than any other user, and anyone can become an admin member, provided he has a good knowledge of routing/ips/etc.
From the start of PTAWUG we strived towards a system with no hierarchy, no one is better than anyone else - yes, some people do more than others, but it's their own choice. That is also reflected on our IRC - there are no ops or voice, etc.

I doubt it will be very long before the whole thing comes crashing down in a pile of accusations, alleged fraud, favoritism and nepotism.

I don't see that happening, the finances are all clearly kept record of, openly, for any wug member to view.

There is a reason why almost every other club in the country runs as a S. 21 company,

and that is ?

complete with a committee, transparent finances and meetings for members to vote on proposed activities.

Last meeting we had - 80 connected members attended, had good discussions and sorted out issues.

Your kickbacks from the equipment suppliers are going to come back and kick you in the arse. How long do you think it will be before members start questioning where the money went, who decided what to spend it on, and who got the contract?

All that is done on the wiki, clear record keeping, members can propose where rebates are spent - we do not get CASH from the suppliers, we get credit, which we can spend on equipment. Rebates are fairly spread throughout the network highsites, all the areas.
We have been running the rebate deal for more than a year, and we have no issues thus far.

I can fully understand the OPs point. Despite what you might believe, most people want independence; they don't want to brown nose a "core team" member in an IRC channel in an effort to get their high site completed.

There are no ops. The admin team is in the service of the rest of the community, no one needs to be brown nosed. Maybe if a person refuses to read the guides and follow the steps on getting connected, he will not be treaded well, but that's logical, the wug is not a business, members aren't clients. Members put up highsites, members find them - if they dont have enough knowledge or skill to do the installation, someone else with the knowledge helps. For example, RomeoOs organised a site for us in Pretoria West, we used donations and rebates to get the equipment and he went and installed it himself (first site). Then the following weekend after the meeting he went and helped Mortifer install a new site in Centurion. There were no admin team members involved.

And, this is at the risk of being flamed, or if you run into Daffy, being told "I'll personally make sure that you never become a member of the WUG". No, I'm not papsnoek, but I was lurking in the IRC channel when this incident, and others have happened. Most people would rather pay annual subs of a few hundred, or even a few thousand rand to have all the nagging eliminated.

they are welcome to do so, as long as the pay the salaries of the people who have to keep the network up and running. On the wug - EVERYONE is responsible for that, not only a few elites. Once again, wugs are not businesses, wireless users group - a community network, you do not pay for any kind of service, there are no gaurentees of service.

This is how clubs are run. If you don't like it, continue what you're doing (for however long it lasts) but don't get all uppity when someone comes along with an idea to do things the right way.

I am not sure you graps the idea of non-profit, non-commercial community wireless networks.

As for your apparent claiming of the ISM bands for yourself. **** you. Those bands are free for anyone to use. There's probably more money changing hands in your WUGs than some small businesses, so who's a "commercial venture" then?

commercial = make profit

Non profit doesn't mean no fees, as any accountant will tell you, so my interpretation is that a S. 21 association CAN be a WUG, and stands a better chance of survival than your loose group of kiss-ass members and power mad core team.

THAT DAMN CORE-TEAM, kill'em ALL!
If the admin team was power-mad, there would be no new admins added, we started with 6, and have 30 now.
If the admin team was power-mad, there would be absolutely no openness or clarity about IP's, routing, finances, highsites, planning, etc. But everything is there, for all members to see on the wiki.
There would also be sets of iron-hard strict rules governing the operation of the wug and members would be kicked off left and right - no-one has ever been kicked off PTAWUG. Yes, there has been incidents of people runnig tools like The Dude, but then the person is notified, and he stops.

Good luck with your first attempt at a WUG, it's proved how useful a cheap network can be, been a great technology testbed, and I'm sure you've had a lot of fun, but if you're not willing to formalise the association, someone else will.

not sure who you are speaking to


And, all wugs have written constitutions and codes of conduct in which all the "rules" and ways of doing things are set out in.

PTAWUG has 412 members in just under two years, biggest wug in SA, tell's me we are doing something the right way.

 

[rebel998]

Protz, vee jou af aan die wat PTAWUG gas wil gee.

 

[protzkrog]

nope, just stating the correct facts, and not making wild assumptions

 

[daffy]

I just don't understand all the hostility towards the WUGs.
What has a WUGer ever done to you people?

The majority of people that have anything against the WUG are:
WISPs, because they think they have more claim to the spectrum than WUGs do.
Wannabe WUGers, because they hate the fact that there's no coverage for them.
People who don't understand, because they don't see the point and they just don't understand how it works.

People who have been on the WUG have no more power over the running of the WUG, than a person who joined yesterday. Its a community, and things happen if the community agrees on it.

We try our best to improve the network, but we can't do it alone. We do need hardware donations from prospective WUGers, and existing WUGers. Its all in the best interests of the network.

If I've ever threatened anyone, I was probably just quicker to voice it than other people in the channel who were feeling the same way. There are reasons why we don't want certain 'types' of users on our network. We have rules which have been put in place to protect the WUG, just like any organisation or club.

If I remember correctly, the person in question was basically saying he was going to use the WUG to do whatever he wanted, and no-one would stop him. The list of things he was wanting to do included, connecting up an ADSL line to start selling internet access to anyone on the WUG. Which would put the WUG at a huge risk. No manner of explaining this or reasoning with this person was getting this through.

I find that most people who are anti-WUG simply don't understand the WUG. And a quick visit to our IRC server will help you get a proper understanding of how we operate, and why we operate that way. Just ask your questions in a civil manner, and they'll get a civil response.
We've been around for a long time, longer than most WISPs out there, and we'll be around for a long time to come because our users are committed and passionate about what we're doing.

 

[rebel998]

All true daffy, the WUG is no place for selfish people.

 

[Drunkard #1]

I’m not going to repeat myself because I stand by what I said. The problems I have with the WUGs are these:

They behave like a small time clique of schoolgirls. They hope and advertise to get new members, then cry about those members making requests with are less brown nosing than the current members. Your membership probably already includes all the tech heads in your coverage areas, the rest of us have more interest in what the network can do for us than what technologies it’s using. You are providing a service, in the same way as a sports or recreational club provides a service, your members have a right to receive that service. You advertise the WUG as a hobbyist’s network, if your members and potential members can’t make use of it as a network, rather advertise it as a networking test bed for techs. That’s why I have a problem with the way you run the WUGs. A proper club would have paid employees doing the jobs no member wants to do, and that way ensure that the members get the service they want.

You mention that the WUGs have constitutions. That’s the right way of doing it, but why aren’t they public? Surely that’s something that a prospective member should be allowed to see. After all, if Riot2 becomes an admin he might use the money for beer and pizza. That’s the sort of thing that a visible constitution (like every incorporated club has) reassures prospective members about. That any donations are going into a regulated association, not to Riots beer fund.

That, in my opinion, is why the OP (original poster – Techmonkey in this case) wants to start his own WUG: to avoid your “hippie commune” system of administration. All he, and probably some of your current members, want is to pay their money and get their network.

The current WUGs have a well established backbone network, a group of dedicated members, and a lot of knowledge about wireless, but unless they move forward with formalising their activities, I can’t see them surviving past the 1 000 member mark. I’m actually surprised they survived past 50 members with their current admin system.

As for your misinterpretation of S. 21 associations; these associations can make a profit, or a loss, hire people, fire people, run as a charity or as a club, or most of the other things a company can do. And they’re still non-commercial entities. They are “associations not for gain”, they’re not “associations not for profit”.

So run your WUG as you want, ignore the opinion of those who’ve owned and run sports clubs in the past, but please, don’t insult every person who wants to run a WUG in the “normal” way. You might not want then in your clique of friends, but there are people out there who prefer doing thing the normal way. I’m not anti WUG, I would happily join a WUG, but I’m becoming very disillusioned with the one in my area currently.

And if you don’t mind, I’ll keep my comments in this forum. Your responses here are rose tined, compared to some I’ve seen in the IRC channel.

 

[Peder]

sometimes the normal way isn't the "best" way... just because you're not used to it you appear scared...

 

[protzkrog]

I’m not going to repeat myself because I stand by what I said. The problems I have with the WUGs are these:

They behave like a small time clique of schoolgirls.

412 of them

They hope and advertise to get new members, then cry about those members making requests with are less brown nosing than the current members.

Please provide examples and proof

Your membership probably already includes all the tech heads in your coverage areas, the rest of us have more interest in what the network can do for us than what technologies it’s using.

On PTAWUG we have people from age 14 to age 61 on the network, not everyone is into IT, most are. We have had people connecting then asking on IRC "how do I change the IP on my PC?", but at least now they know how, as well as a bit of basic routing, learned something in the process.

You are providing a service, in the same way as a sports or recreational club provides a service, your members have a right to receive that service.

No, you do not have the RIGHT to receive a service, you are part of the wug, it is a COMMUNITY, you must help to maintain and build the network. You can not act like a ANC member and just demand! Maybe it works like that in other clubs, but not on a wug, we are in this together.

You advertise the WUG as a hobbyist’s network, if your members and potential members can’t make use of it as a network,

they can make use of the network, as long as ESKOM keeps the highsites up, if you don't like it when the site you connect to goes down, make a plan for backup power.

rather advertise it as a networking test bed for techs. That’s why I have a problem with the way you run the WUGs. A proper club would have paid employees doing the jobs no member wants to do, and that way ensure that the members get the service they want.

We are not a 'proper' club then, and we do not want to be a proper club. We never said we are, we will never be. Why do we have to follow the examples and models of operation of other clubs and organizations.
The wugs have finances, but not enough to pay someone to permanently do wug stuff.

You mention that the WUGs have constitutions. That’s the right way of doing it, but why aren’t they public? Surely that’s something that a prospective member should be allowed to see.

Will post it on the site

After all, if Riot2 becomes an admin he might use the money for beer and pizza. That’s the sort of thing that a visible constitution (like every incorporated club has) reassures prospective members about. That any donations are going into a regulated association, not to Riots beer fund.

Or the wugmeet beer fund, 2 meetings back we got donations for beer for the meeting and bought 8 cases. Hell, at the combined PTAWUG, Jawug meeting rpm from MyBroadband sponosored R2000 worth of beer for the wuggers.

That, in my opinion, is why the OP (original poster – Techmonkey in this case) wants to start his own WUG: to avoid your “hippie commune” system of administration. All he, and probably some of your current members, want is to pay their money and get their network.

There is no gaurentee of service, if a site breaks down, lightning, router failure, etc. members can't DEMAND for it to be fixed NOW, if you have a problem, then volunteer to go with and help the guys get it fixed and running again.
Jees, were do we have a hippie commune system ? There is a constitution, there's admin members, there's financial admin, everything is sorted, there are responsible people for all the 'jobs' on the wug.
I think that you should join a wug and see how things are done rather than make wild sweeping statements as if you have been a member for years.

The current WUGs have a well established backbone network, a group of dedicated members, and a lot of knowledge about wireless, but unless they move forward with formalising their activities, I can’t see them surviving past the 1 000 member mark. I’m actually surprised they survived past 50 members with their current admin system.

PTAWUG is 412 users, Jawug (that is linked to PTAWUG) has about 250, thats 662, at the current growth rate PTAWUG will be 650 by the end of the year, Jawug should be about 350, then it's a 1000, will come back to this thread then.

So run your WUG as you want, ignore the opinion of those who’ve owned and run sports clubs in the past, but please, don’t insult every person who wants to run a WUG in the “normal” way. You might not want then in your clique of friends, but there are people out there who prefer doing thing the normal way. I’m not anti WUG, I would happily join a WUG, but I’m becoming very disillusioned with the one in my area currently.

We are not a sports club, we are not a club as per definition, why should we let ourselves be bound to the 'normal' ways of operation of a club ?
I speak for myself when I say that when I joined the wug, I knew no one on it, no friends were connected, it's NOT a clique of friends, it's people of all ages of all walks of life together on one network with the same goals and vision.
If the people that started wugs in SA were bound to doing things the 'normal' way - wugs would never have been started, the models of operation would be 'normal' - who says normal is RIGHT. The model of operation for PTAWUG works, 412 members in 2 years, no other wug can claim that. Once again, it shows that we are doing things the right way.

And if you don’t mind, I’ll keep my comments in this forum. Your responses here are rose tined, compared to some I’ve seen in the IRC channel.

IRC is a wild place! Maybe because people are passionate about what they have done building up and maintaining a wug.

 

[Luke7777]

They even speak to people like me who're not part of their "hippie commune"

 

[regardtv]

Having spent years as member and a couple as treasurer of 2 sports clubs I struggle to find the comments quoted above to be accurate.

At our rowing club, membership gave you access to the club house and equipment. If that equipment broke it was up to the club members to volunteer to get it fixed - or wait for enough accumulated membership fees to replace it. We had a team of guys to maintain the equipment - we never had enough funds to pay them salaries.

If we upped membership fees to that level we'd not have a club.

I personally DO see the wugs as similar to sports clubs - from a SARS point of view we have little choice but to formalise.

 

[protzkrog]

regardtv, Jawug's finances doesn't really work the same way as PTAWUG's, as far as I know.

 

[Moederloos]

Yawn

How many times have we seen these startups? How many have survived a year? Or even gotten off the ground?

/me re-opens suction cup shop

 

[Atti2de]

What drunkenmonkey and 1techno have said about formalising is valid.

We need to get JAWUG formalised - the reason I say this is:

JAWUG will be able to get more donations from corps, or small CC's like myself, and it will be seen as a donation from the corps. This influences the amount of tax we need to pay over to SARS, ie. corps pay slightly less.

The monies donated will be detailed in a quarterly summary and be available to all members. I agree about the finances being run this way, yes.

BUT

I do NOT agree with monkey and no. 1 slating other people because they do not agree with them. If you have a point, state it with the supporting facts. Do not get agressive with people whom do not agree with you.
If you follow that path, you are going to be angry the rest of your life. Start your WISP and let's see how well you do. If you don't, bad luck.

 

[protzkrog]

if we had to pay bashTux for everytime he walked the 1.2km up the mountain to Die Wilgers highsite, carrying tools and wifi kit up and then climbed the tower and struggled with the antennas and routerPC, the wug would have been broke a long long time ago. He has been up there 2 times in the last 3 days. And he does not even connect directly to it, he does not need Die Wilgers to have access to the wug, but he still does it, that is the kind of selflessness the wug is about.
And bashTux is just an example, there are many members that spend a ****load of time maintaining highsites, without demanding any financial or other reward for it. (Corrie, stew, NUTTY, winnie, Hook, RomeoOs, Yale, th0rn, Rexus, BazDaddy, LouisZa etc.)
We always try to take "new" users with to highsites, so they can learn how the stuff work and get some practical experience.

People do "work" on the wug because they WANT to, not everyone though, not everyone has to, but the people that are dedicated just do the job to keep the wug stable and expand it.

PTAWUG is a great example of where people work together towards a common goal without red tape and hierarchies and useless crap keeping everyone back. Track is kept of finances, members, IPs, highsite changes, planning, etc. - everything is documented.

 

[DenSweep]

Oh FFS! PTAWUG never claimed to be a club. We are a wireless user GROUP. How hard is that to understand? Really.

And WTF is with the clique chirp? From what I can remeber about cliques dates back to when I was at school and that was always small little groups of girls. NOT over 400 ****ing members!

We are not a business. We don't want to be a business.

You can almost call us a modern version of radio hams. Yes, before you soil yourself with my comparison, there are obviously differences. I said almost. No one is forced to join PTAWUG. No one is forced to donate. No one is forced to do anything for that matter, except maybe that if you wanna join, you kinda have to get your own kit. And even that, I've heard of some guys giving away their old kits(OMG, gave away his kit?) to new members.

So please just shut up already. You have your opinion about what technomonkey WANTS to do and what we ARE doing. And have been doing very successfully for what, 2 years now? So clearly we are doing something right. And when we get to the 1000 mark and things are still going, we can chat again. And you know the real beauty of our system? If the rest of the wuggers feel our system isn't working, it can be changed without have a million committee meetings and and chairmans on a power trip etc. We just make a proposal and everyone votes. Klaar.

So I say again, please, to all those who have issues with PTAWUG and WUGS in general, shut up already. If you don't like it, that fine, but shut up and do your own thing!

 

[Drunkard #1]

If you don't like it, that fine, but shut up and do your own thing!

See post one!

Then how about telling the WUG cheerleaders in posts two to 78 to shut up and let us do our own thing!

 

[cam0]

Let me just start by saying I am a PTAWUG member for roughly the past year.

Although I do not have time to attend meetings or be very active within the community, these guys were incredibly helpful assisting me with equipment and setting up.

Protz assisted me endlessly with LOS and which HS to point to, Bashtux helped me non-stop in configuring my setup and Greeny even let me go to his house so he could show me a few tricks for putting the equipment together and installation.

Any issue I have ever had, it was rectified in 5 min by either Protz or Bash on IRC.

They never asked anything of me, but I donated about a grand's worth of equipment to further expand the WUG.

I have never had downtime or issues, and to be blatantly honest it is without a doubt one of the best run community based projects I have ever experienced by far.

I have the utmost faith in Protz managing the finances of the PTAWUG and equipment donations. I am in no way even skeptical about his transparency or underlying motivations for developing the wug. He and the rest of guys who put in so much work, do it for themselves and the community without any reward.

And finally even with the donations that have been given and equipment, I actually don't care if they go buy beers and have a braai or if Protz takes his new wife out for dinner for putting up with him spending so much time on the WUG. He deserves it and he has the morals to not exploit the other PTAWUG member's trust.

If you other guys wish to start another project, by all means do it. If you do not agree with the way the PTAWUG is run, then don't join. This is all the PTAWUG member's community project and with roughly 400 or more members more than happy with the way it is run, I really believe they are doing an incredible job and it will just keep growing from strength to strength.