Official Crystal Web ADSL performance feedback thread Part 2...

[Sinbad]

"twice as worse"??

oooy vey

 

[ZinSA]

Updating Firefox

 

[Crystal Web]

If I may ask, just out of curiosity because I can't see the rate at which the downloads come down, but does the download shaper apply to downloads from Xbox Live?

Not sure what protocols and ports Live uses.

Downloads are downloads are downloads in our eyes. And shaping happens not on the port layer but a deeper layer than that. So yes, gaming updates and so on will be shaped when the network is contending customers for bandwidth. In fact it's partly because of 50GB+ gaming downloads that this becomes incredibly necessary. It's really not a cost problem for the internet breakout - it's the IPC cost involved. It sits before our network (to connect to your Telkom connection at home) - we have to pay for the bandwidth no matter what you're downloading.

 

[Crystal Web]

"twice as worse"??

oooy vey

Yeah...

 

[Crystal Web]

Updating Firefox

This is on a 2Mbps uncapped account, so yes, these downloads (downloads in general) will contend for bandwidth and shape during these peak hours of use, which is the same for all shaped uncapped accounts. As we previously discussed, we can look at an account that doesn't shape during these peak hours, but this is not the account you are on at the moment.

 

[ZinSA]

Just out of interest, what sort of download performance in peak on a dynamically shaped home 2Mbps service would you be comfortable with?

If someone streams a movie in HD during peak hours (ie. netflix) - I don`t use Netflix so I am guessing here... that would probably amount to about 6GB and a TV episode to about 1.2GB with absolutely no shaping/throttling.

I prefer to watch TV episodes on my HD Flat screen.... the difference is that I download the .MP4 version which varies between 200MB and 300MB. I get shaped/throttled to 25% of the 2MB.

So what you are implying is that I should get a Netflix account and watch my TV episodes live as I will get uncapped and unshaped HD quality 24/7.

Where is the logic in this?

However, I am willing to compromise and do my entertainment downloading between 19:00 - and 07:00.... Oh no.... I can`t because someone wanting to watch Netflix at night needs full capacity

My Data transfer thus far this month in Total Combined (Mb): 72417.86
This includes all protocols (This is hardly downloading the whole internet as described sarcastically by you)

 

[aktor]

If someone streams a movie in HD during peak hours (ie. netflix) - I don`t use Netflix so I am guessing here... that would probably amount to about 6GB and a TV episode to about 1.2GB with absolutely no shaping/throttling.

I prefer to watch TV episodes on my HD Flat screen.... the difference is that I download the .MP4 version which varies between 200MB and 300MB. I get shaped/throttled to 25% of the 2MB.

So what you are implying is that I should get a Netflix account and watch my TV episodes live as I will get uncapped and unshaped HD quality 24/7.

Where is the logic in this?

However, I am willing to compromise and do my entertainment downloading between 19:00 - and 07:00.... Oh no.... I can`t because someone wanting to watch Netflix at night needs full capacity

My Data transfer thus far this month in Total Combined (Mb): 72417.86
This includes all protocols (This is hardly downloading the whole internet as described sarcastically by you)

Yes, but you could just as well argue that your download can function while it's slowed down, whereas Netflix cannot function if it's shaped heavily

 

[ZinSA]

This brings me to the next question

2Mbps Uncapped ADSL

MWEB R199 pm http://www.mweb.co.za/products.aspx
Telkom R165 pm http://www.telkom.co.za/sites/athome/productsandservices/internetandbroadband/adsl/
Vox R239 pm https://www.voxtelecom.co.za/home-uncapped
Axxess R265 pm https://www.axxess.co.za/uncapped
Cybersmart R195 pm https://www.cybersmart.co.za/uncapped/
OpenWeb R249 pm http://openweb.co.za/home-uncapped-plus/
SAOL R195 pm http://www.saol.com/adsl4.php
Afrihost R297 pm https://www.afrihost.com/site/product/adsl_uncapped
WebAfrica R199 pm http://www.webafrica.co.za/adsl/

Crystal Web R349 pm http://crystalweb.co.za/index.html

What do I get from Crystal Web that I cannot get cheaper from every other provider in SA?

I would have said UNCAPPED UNSHAPED internet as standard....

But we all know that isn`t true....

Why should we be prepared to pay for one of the most expensive 2Mbps Uncapped ADSL accounts and get throttled to 25%?

 

[Crystal Web]

If someone streams a movie in HD during peak hours (ie. netflix) - I don`t use Netflix so I am guessing here... that would probably amount to about 6GB and a TV episode to about 1.2GB with absolutely no shaping/throttling.

I prefer to watch TV episodes on my HD Flat screen.... the difference is that I download the .MP4 version which varies between 200MB and 300MB. I get shaped/throttled to 25% of the 2MB.

So what you are implying is that I should get a Netflix account and watch my TV episodes live as I will get uncapped and unshaped HD quality 24/7.

Where is the logic in this?

However, I am willing to compromise and do my entertainment downloading between 19:00 - and 07:00.... Oh no.... I can`t because someone wanting to watch Netflix at night needs full capacity

My Data transfer thus far this month in Total Combined (Mb): 72417.86
This includes all protocols (This is hardly downloading the whole internet as described sarcastically by you)

I think there's some confusion here about how a network operates, or at least how products are created. So let me explain:

A product is created with a feature set in mind. That feature set needs to cater for a wide audience. In our case, our products operate as previously posted earlier in the thread (the uncapped account you are on). One cannot open this up for unshaped streaming, unshaped gaming, unshaped downloading and so on. That's an uncapped, unshaped account, which is not the service you are subscribed to. In your case, you want to be able to download at line speed or close to it, in business peak, and consumer peak, and that's fine. But then you need an account more suited to your needs. Perhaps a capped account, which as you will see are back on the website and available again. So in terms of product-set, the account you are on is certainly not set to be unshaped on download protocols during business peak periods. As with every consumer based uncapped account, we apply shaping, and it is more prominent in peak periods. We do not throttle accounts.

Now we did discuss this on live chat (you and I) and I explained that we have moved to a dynamic shaping system. We also sent notices about this, and sent news long before it happened. The website was also updated to reflect this and I mentioned I was in the process of doing so. You may need to clear your cache to see it reflect the changes.

I also didn't describe you as downloading the internet. It was in reference to the downloaders club. Apologies if you read it like this.

There really needs to be an expectation vs reality match here. If you require an account that is unshaped on download protocols in peak periods, no consumer orientated uncapped account will be suitable. You asked why you pay a premium? Well, because with your usage patterns you'd be throttled on every single account you listed in your comparison. With us you're not. You are shaped on some protocols in peak, yes. That's precisely how the account is marketed and how it operates, and how all uncapped accounts work in the consumer market. Reason being IPC+internet breakout can cost thousands of Rands per Mbps. In addition, you receive a free premium news server account, the best support in the business, a network that quite simply works for gaming, streaming, VPN and downloads (but downloads are shaped), and we don't take punitive measures until we've actually investigated an account for real contraventions of an AUP.

If you wish to compare our prices, you actually need to do so with comparable products. i.e. Mweb's business accounts. WebAfrica's business accounts. Afrihost's standard home uncapped. Telkom's business accounts. Most of those, BTW, are also throttled, or penalised for too much peak usage dependent on your line speed. When you start to compare apples with apples, you realise we're actually R50 cheaper than WA, R39 cheaper than Mweb, and R50 more expensive than Afrihost, although we don't do the 6.25% shaping standard they now use. They don't give you the kind of support you get from us, which is why we were voted top support (and top overall ISP this year), nor do they give you two free news servers (one being premium for your backup stuff that doesn't come off the IS news server), nor do they offer you the level of transparency and openness we do, in my opinion at least.

So you pay for a premium, and you get a premium service, for cheaper than the premium offerings of other ISPs, with a better quality of service, and premium freebies too. It is however still a shaped service.

 

[CataclysmZA]

Just out of interest, what sort of download performance in peak on a dynamically shaped home 2Mbps service would you be comfortable with?

Personally full speed for 1 minute and half it every minute after until it's 1/8 for a /home/ account

Which would be nice for <25MB downloads. But anything above 25MB and you actually end up having worse performance than what ZinSA posted.

In the past you've always mentioned that you only look to shaping large downloads. What is large for Crystal Web on this backbone right now? Is it 20MB? 100MB? 1GB? I'm unsure of what to do when a 75MB Steam client update comes down during the day at 56Kb/s, when switching on Netflix not a minute later sees it buffering nicely in HD without a stutter during what should be working hours.

I see now that some of my speed has returned and things are okay. But I'm not going to be satisfied until I see this same performance on Monday morning. When I received the capped account I was told by the support agent that it was provisioned identically to my paid account. If I see general speeds drop to under 1Mb/s again on Monday, and if the capped test account continues to perform magnitudes better, then I'm going to have to assume that this isn't the case.

 

[Crystal Web]

In the past you've always mentioned that you only look to shaping large downloads. What is large for Crystal Web on this backbone right now? Is it 20MB? 100MB? 1GB? I'm unsure of what to do when a 75MB Steam client update comes down during the day at 56Kb/s, when switching on Netflix not a minute later sees it buffering nicely in HD without a stutter during what should be working hours.

The large download bit is a remnant of the old backbone, and not the new one. It no longer applied.

 

[Crystal Web]

When I received the capped account I was told by the support agent that it was provisioned identically to my paid account.

Can you please send me the ticket number for this, as I clearly need to do more training with this staff member. The free 1GB test accounts are not provisioned on our uncapped controllers - they're capped accounts through and through.

 

[StevenC]

Jumping on the bandwagon today - for the most part I have been extremely happy with my account.

I am on a legacy account, the details of which I will not divulge. However, a quick question regarding shaping and shared traffic:

On the old Cybersmart backbone, I was pleasantly surprised when I could play an online game like D3 or WoW while maybe streaming a Youtube video in the background with little to no effect on latency. Or perhaps finishing off a..ahem...news broadcast at half line speed (manually set).

Since the backbone move, I find that this is no longer the case, and even a wayward update will kill my latency. Now I know latency can be affected by no available bandwidth, which I am assuming is the case. However, even when running half speed news, it still affects it. I will put in some more testing, but I know from previous IS experience that shared protocols generally muddy up the entire line.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned priority and how it is given to real time services like streaming / gaming. When other protocols take place, how does it affect that priority?

 

[Crystal Web]

Jumping on the bandwagon today - for the most part I have been extremely happy with my account.

I am on a legacy account, the details of which I will not divulge. However, a quick question regarding shaping and shared traffic:

On the old Cybersmart backbone, I was pleasantly surprised when I could play an online game like D3 or WoW while maybe streaming a Youtube video in the background with little to no effect on latency. Or perhaps finishing off a..ahem...news broadcast at half line speed (manually set).

Since the backbone move, I find that this is no longer the case, and even a wayward update will kill my latency. Now I know latency can be affected by no available bandwidth, which I am assuming is the case. However, even when running half speed news, it still affects it. I will put in some more testing, but I know from previous IS experience that shared protocols generally muddy up the entire line.

Earlier in the thread you mentioned priority and how it is given to real time services like streaming / gaming. When other protocols take place, how does it affect that priority?

Traffic is tagged according to priority and that won't change when other traffic moves over your account, so it should still retain highest priority. If this isn't happening drop us a mail or chat and ask that it be escalated to me (send details) and I'll see what I can do for you. I should note that we don't use the standard Internet Solutions network policies and management controllers - we provision capacity on their backbone with our own network management and network policies, so if anything it's probably not related to an IS issue.

 

[CataclysmZA]

The large download bit is a remnant of the old backbone, and not the new one. It no longer applied.

I feel its still valid even if you're not shaping according to size. Remember the days when MWEB suddenly didn't tell people what constituted over-use of a uncapped account? Knowing now, at least indirectly through the work of MyBB members, that a 4Mb Uncapped account guarantees you around 120GB of mostly unshaped data meant that people knew what the account was made for and what the ISP expected it to be used for and in what way.

If 1GB is a large file to me and you similarly agree, then we're on the same page and we can understand each other when we both refer to "large downloads," which would mean a couple of GB. If 1GB is large to me but 100MB is large to you, then we have a big mismatch in expectations and there's obviously now scope for frustration from both parties.

I'll PM you the ticket number as soon as I find where the conversation is.

 

[Crystal Web]

I feel its still valid even if you're not shaping according to size. Remember the days when MWEB suddenly didn't tell people what constituted over-use of a uncapped account? Knowing now, at least indirectly through the work of MyBB members, that a 4Mb Uncapped account guarantees you around 120GB of mostly unshaped data meant that people knew what the account was made for and what the ISP expected it to be used for and in what way.

If 1GB is a large file to me and you similarly agree, then we're on the same page and we can understand each other when we both refer to "large downloads," which would mean a couple of GB. If 1GB is large to me but 100MB is large to you, then we have a big mismatch in expectations and there's obviously now scope for frustration from both parties.

I'll PM you the ticket number as soon as I find where the conversation is.

Oh, what I meant was we don't use the "large download" principle any longer. Download protocols are shaped, irrespective of their size. With regards to the Mweb reference, I think you're referring to throttling - they were never unshaped up to a gig usage then shaped. It's shaped then throttled after certain usage to the best of my knowledge.

 

[CataclysmZA]

Since the backbone move, I find that this is no longer the case, and even a wayward update will kill my latency. Now I know latency can be affected by no available bandwidth, which I am assuming is the case. However, even when running half speed news, it still affects it. I will put in some more testing, but I know from previous IS experience that shared protocols generally muddy up the entire line.

I'd like to add that with my setup at home, I'm just using D-Link's expedited forwarding QoS option, not a custom one of my own, and I can have two people watching Youtube at night while I get 200ms pings to Hawken servers in Germany.

Download protocols are shaped, irrespective of their size.

Would regular browsing include any data that would be classified as a download and therefore shaped? Like, loading a GIF or PNG image, for example?

 

[slvR]

twitch @ Source<333333

 

[Phinix]

twitch @ Source<333333

I know right, being able to watch two Twitch streams at source at the same time off the website is pure bliss.

 

[Manemarak]

If someone streams a movie in HD during peak hours (ie. netflix) - I don`t use Netflix so I am guessing here... that would probably amount to about 6GB and a TV episode to about 1.2GB with absolutely no shaping/throttling.

I prefer to watch TV episodes on my HD Flat screen.... the difference is that I download the .MP4 version which varies between 200MB and 300MB. I get shaped/throttled to 25% of the 2MB.

So what you are implying is that I should get a Netflix account and watch my TV episodes live as I will get uncapped and unshaped HD quality 24/7.

Where is the logic in this?

However, I am willing to compromise and do my entertainment downloading between 19:00 - and 07:00.... Oh no.... I can`t because someone wanting to watch Netflix at night needs full capacity

My Data transfer thus far this month in Total Combined (Mb): 72417.86
This includes all protocols (This is hardly downloading the whole internet as described sarcastically by you)

Do the smart thing: watch the show many times!

5X 1 gig is nothing compared to a one time 300mb download being watched many times :}