will John Welch prosecute himself

[captainwifi]

John Welch is not filling in the forms for relicensing of firearms because he
as the deputy director for prosecutions says that old licenses are valid
for life. Note the the prosecutors decides what laws are valid not the ANC.
Our constitution guarentees the independence of the prosecuting authority.
So will John Welch prosecute himself for refusing to fill in the competency
certificates? Note that the police can't prosecute anybody - they can only
present a case to a prosecutor who must then decline or accept.

WORST CASE SENARIO:
A single individual will be prosecuted for failing to renew their license by
John Welch (pss he says he won't). Ok, then you have a precedent setting
conviction. After this John Welch prosecutes himself and joins this chap in jail!

QUESTION TO Ncakula from the police:
Are you insane?

[captainwifi]

So why is Saga and other related bodies not warning us to ignore this rubbish? Because they could be legally sued in civil claims if they wind up being wrong. Also people are extremely afraid of the ANC and don't want to critise it to openly. Why don't the gunshops inform me about my rights? Many gunshops do fire-arms training. Eventually every single gunshop will be closed and they are just scraping in the last crumbs of money by going along with the relicensing sham. Their only concern is for themselves. And if you don't relicense then you won't ever be able to purchase another gun - from them! The bible says that
".... the love of money is the root of all evil". How true and the gunshops are only looking at this from their perspective: money. They don't care if you lose your relicensed gun after 5years.

From a legal perspective both a drivers and gun license were issued under certain terms. The terms under which your drivers license can be invalidated can only be done via a court due to a criminal action on your
part. There was no clause under the drivers and gun license terms where you could be forced to sign a form giving a policemen the right to state that you told him you moo like a cow every morning.

Lets assume for argument's sake that the ANC wants to take away everybodies driving licenses. So they interview your mother and they write your mother said that you levitate in mid-air and talk to the Elvs everynight. They thrust a form into your hand that you have to sign on p.6. BUT ON PAGE 10 the question the policemen has to answer is:
"ARE THERE ANY NEGATIVE ASPECTS KNOWN ABOUT THE APPLICANT. If yes submit details"

Negative aspects according to whom? How do I challenge this person assertion of my 'negative aspects'? But on p. 6 I signed away my rights! So the policemen can write anything he wants on p10 and I signed for it while
not actually reading it. Then surely based on p.10 they would be able to invalidate your drivers license - you signed! But if you refuse to hand in the forms and they want to take away your license - you challenge them in court.

IF JOHN WELCH WONT SIGN SUCH RUBBISH THEN WHY ARE YOU?

So why is our beloved lawyers not stating the obvious? Remember the
PAIA fiasco with Leon Wessels holding himself 'haantjie' and warning everybody that he is the new John Welch who will zap everybody? The lawyers are not shouting this from the rooftops because they make their money by having people comply with compliance laws which they write. They don't want people to realise that all you have to do is phone John Welch and ask him exactly when will he prosecute anybody for ignoring the ECA and PAIA? Answer: Never. And let me remind you that there was an attempt by 'empowered' Smuts Egnoyama in the previous drafts of the ECB to bypass the police and go strait to the NPA(National Prosecuting Authority) or Scorpions. In the final ECB I see this was removed. So John Welch told
Icasa that he is not available for their Telkom driven prosecutions.

[supersunbird]

Are you talking to yourself? (based on your second posts opening remark)

[Koos Custodiet]

John Welch is not filling in the forms for relicensing of firearms because he
as the deputy director for prosecutions says that old licenses are valid
for life.

I'm not too sure of this. Could you please provide sources? When I met Adv Welch he seemed to indicate that one should comply with the law, even if it is wrong, and to try to change the law from within, so to speak, as opposed to from prison.

So will John Welch prosecute himself for refusing to fill in the competency certificates?

You're confusing things. Competency certificates get filled in by the trainer, SASSETA, and the Police (three different certificates I'm speaking of).

In any case, the PP can be replaced.

WORST CASE SENARIO:
A single individual will be prosecuted for failing to renew their license by
John Welch (pss he says he won't). Ok, then you have a precedent setting
conviction. After this John Welch prosecutes himself and joins this chap in jail!

I doubt this scenario.

More likely : The police kick in your door, confiscate your firearms, stick you in prison. They then say "sign this form (voluntary surrender of firearm) and we will let you go". You sign, go home. Or do you think people will stand up to the police?

Koos.

[Syndyre]

John Welch is not filling in the forms for relicensing of firearms because he
as the deputy director for prosecutions says that old licenses are valid
for life. Note the the prosecutors decides what laws are valid not the ANC.
Our constitution guarentees the independence of the prosecuting authority.
So will John Welch prosecute himself for refusing to fill in the competency
certificates? Note that the police can't prosecute anybody - they can only
present a case to a prosecutor who must then decline or accept.

Maybe he does but what happens when he's replaced?

[Koos Custodiet]

So why is Saga and other related bodies not warning us to ignore this rubbish?

Because SAGA "and other related bodies" all advocate complying with the law. Even GOSA, who is actively trying to get the law scrapped, advocates complying with the law while it is in fact a law.

Only BGOSA are saying that they won't comply.

Why don't the gunshops inform me about my rights?

1. Since when should a gunshop inform you of your rights? It's your job to know what your rights are.

2. What makes you think the dudes working at the shop have any idea? Very few people in this country understand more than 60% of the text of the Firearm Control Act, never mind the implications.

Many gunshops do fire-arms training. Eventually every single gunshop will be closed and they are just scraping in the last crumbs of money by going along with the relicensing sham. Their only concern is for themselves.

Indeed. The first draft of the Amendment Bill earlier this year proposed scrapping the relicencing. The second draft was a totally different animal. One reason put forward is that it's only the training keeping the few remaining gunshops (< 200, down from 600+) afloat, and as such they complained.

IF JOHN WELCH WONT SIGN SUCH RUBBISH THEN WHY ARE YOU?

Who are you speaking to?

And in any case, you're missing the point. Without new licences being issued, they only have to wait for existing firearm owners to die. Then they would have won.

What are *you* doing about that?

Koos

[captainwifi]

.... the law while it is in fact a law.
....What are *you* doing about that?

Koos

WRONG: Something only becomes established as law once the Judicial rules on it. The LEGISLATIVE, EXECUTIVE(John Welch), JUDICIAL are three seperate pillars of our justice system so as to prevent Essop Pahad from making a law forcing all Umhlungus to sing freedom songs, prosecuting them if they don't and convicting them. We will have a banana republic......

===================
What am I doin about it? Trying to convince people that they can be the
next Telkom in open defiance of the ECA,RICA and all other speach control
laws:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=39954

[Syndyre]

WRONG: Something only becomes established as law once the Judicial rules on it. The LEGISLATIVE, EXECUTIVE(John Welch), JUDICIAL are three seperate pillars of our justice system so as to prevent Essop Pahad from making a law forcing all Umhlungus to sing freedom songs, prosecuting them if they don't and convicting them. We will have a banana republic......

===================
What am I doin about it? Trying to convince people that they can be the
next Telkom in open defiance of the ECA,RICA and all other speach control
laws:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php?t=39954

True but the judiciary can only overturn a law if its in conflict with the constitution, and seeing as the ANC has the required parliamentary majority to amend the constitution...

[Koos Custodiet]

What am I doin about it? Trying to convince people that they can be the
next Telkom in open defiance of the ECA,RICA and all other speach control
laws:

OK, my apologies for it being Monday morning and I being slow... but what does not renewing your firearm licence have to do with Telkom?

Koos

[captainwifi]

True but the judiciary can only overturn a law if its in conflict with the constitution, and seeing as the ANC has the required parliamentary majority to amend the constitution...

Sure they can but as I explained elsewhere there will be swift judgement from
the stockmarket. Now would empowered Zola Skweyiya want that?

The ANC is in some sort of fantasy land , they don't really know what they want.

On the one hand they want a vibrant economy so that they can stay in power. But they also want to implement thought conrol via the ECA and RICA Act. But to have a bustling economy people must be able to freely speak their mind. They want CCTV in the streets via a council Fiber network. But they don't want to allow the public to use that same network to stream data. They want cheap broadband but they have this slight problem that Mbeki is loosing all his support in the ANC and thus he had to 'empower' Smuts Ngoyama by allowing him to skim the top of Telkom. Needless to say Smuts Ngoyama is a staunch supporter of the Thabo Mbeki, while the public has to pay for this wonderful support so the ANC doens't completely fall appart.

Their idea of making black farmers a success would be to decree that from now on it may only rain on black farms but not on white farms.
They don't seem to understand that should stop terrorizing their tax base but rather embrace them so we can make this country a success.

[captainwifi]

....I'm not too sure of this. Could you please More likely : The police kick in your door, confiscate your firearms, stick you in prison. They then say "sign this form (voluntary surrender of firearm) and we will let you go". You sign, go home. Or do you think people will stand up to the police?

Koos.

Will the SAPS not throw me in jail if I violate an Icasa directive?

If there are no precedents then no they won't. Lets take for example a differenet compliance law that states you may not have alien species on your farm. Not a single farmer has yet been charged over this. Yes, the SAPS can take a statement though. But if they throw the farmer in jail and the NPA refuses to prosecute then the SAPS can be sued for damages. Because you will have a situation where the police would lock-up all the farmers every weekend after finding an alien species on their farm. In other words we would have police terror. Our constitution has been finely crafted to eliminate abuse of power.

In the same way if the SAPS locks 2million firearm owners in jail, but they
are not prosecuted the government will be bankrupted by the lawsuits.
It is no wonder people are'nt taking my Fixed wired posts serious. They just don't understand that the police don't have the power to prosecute you:
THE PROSECUTOR DOES THIS - his name is Vusi Pikoli the NDPP.
Below him is the eight deputy directors.

Very simple to understand
IN terms of current legislation all gun licenses are valid until June 2009. So when John Welch relicenses his firearms then it could be
argued by legal persons that only then should the rest of South Africa relicense.
John Welch has not relicensed yet .... It really can't be this difficult to understand.