Official Crystal Web ADSL performance feedback thread Part 2...

Are you satisfied with your Crystal Web account?

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21:05 On a Friday night.

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Excellent "shaping" guys.
 
Testing with some D3 at the moment, can definitely feel NNTP running at half speed, game has delay and latency bounces around like crazy >.<

Will contact support on Monday to check it all out :)
 
Downloading a HotS update on the Battle.Net launcher at 270 KBps (10mbps line). Not a crisis, but just wondering - is this normal shaping or is something wrong?
If it's normal shaping, is there something like a turbocharge we can use yet?
 
Was playing Ghost Recon Phantoms earlier and the lag is so bad I had to leave.

Just signed up for an MWeb 7 day test account so I will post more about that a bit later.

Get your own 7 Day Free Trial Account here:
http://www.mweb.co.za/internet-connection/adsl/view-all-adsl-packages.aspx#uncapped-adsl
 
Trying to play some mmo's - getting lots of ping spikes. Some websites won't open and browsing is slow.

But...getting full speed (1MB/s) on NNTP download.(and no, I don't download while playing games)
 
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aktor said:
Downloading a HotS update on the Battle.Net launcher at 270 KBps (10mbps line). Not a crisis, but just wondering - is this normal shaping or is something wrong?
If it's normal shaping, is there something like a turbocharge we can use yet?
Click to expand...

Its normal and in the range of what I'm seeing from downloads as well during the day. All downloads, no matter how small, are shaped to hell if they contend with the bandwidth for streaming and other high-priority stuff.
 
CataclysmZA said:
Its normal and in the range of what I'm seeing from downloads as well during the day. All downloads, no matter how small, are shaped to hell if they contend with the bandwidth for streaming and other high-priority stuff.
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That's a little hectic. CW, with your plans to optimise things a bit, can we expect to maybe see an improvement here? For instance, I'm not a downloader (the odd game update etc only) but that kinda speed on a 10mbps account is a bit extreme maybe. I understand your predicament as well, though - hence my question about turbocharges or something to help us get those occasional downloads coming down at line speed.
I gotta add: I'm extremely happy with my Netflix performance. Honestly, you've done a fantastic job there. But I'd love to be able to download at the speed I'm supposed to get now and then (not all the time, of course). One response I got from someone else was to schedule my game updates etc for after midnight. The problem is that that is not always possible - if it's a relatively small 1GB update or something and the battle.net launcher is springing it on me out of the blue, I don't want to have to wait for midnight to be able to update it.
 
CataclysmZA said:
Its normal and in the range of what I'm seeing from downloads as well during the day. All downloads, no matter how small, are shaped to hell if they contend with the bandwidth for streaming and other high-priority stuff.
Click to expand...

Not sure I'd call daytime shaping to 25% of line speed in peak on downloads as shaped to hell. Shaping eased up last night fairly decently as well.
 
Crystal Web said:
Not sure I'd call daytime shaping to 25% of line speed in peak on downloads as shaped to hell. Shaping eased up last night fairly decently as well.
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25% of line speed is little...dangerously little

By little I mean little speed, a lot of shaping...
 
aktor said:
That's a little hectic. CW, with your plans to optimise things a bit, can we expect to maybe see an improvement here? For instance, I'm not a downloader (the odd game update etc only) but that kinda speed on a 10mbps account is a bit extreme maybe. I understand your predicament as well, though - hence my question about turbocharges or something to help us get those occasional downloads coming down at line speed.
I gotta add: I'm extremely happy with my Netflix performance. Honestly, you've done a fantastic job there. But I'd love to be able to download at the speed I'm supposed to get now and then (not all the time, of course). One response I got from someone else was to schedule my game updates etc for after midnight. The problem is that that is not always possible - if it's a relatively small 1GB update or something and the battle.net launcher is springing it on me out of the blue, I don't want to have to wait for midnight to be able to update it.
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I know it's nice to be able to download at line speed during the day, but as mentioned, the realities are that no ISP can offer that at these prices. The speed boost function is coming though. As mentioned, downloads aren't actually shaped to hell. There is compromise to be had here - we currently offer the lowest priced home premium account on the market, with better performance than others and no throttling. If we're to now add downloads as unshaped, we're essentially running an uncapped unshaped service. It's not feasible considering the price of last mile connectivity over IPC.

We are also going to introduce new configs (remember this is the very first month on the new configs, controllers, backbone, and bandwidth) but there needs to be some reality vs expectation matching here, and the reality is that downloads will be shaped in peak, which is defined by usage behaviour and not business hours (for all ISPs). We could very easily introduce unshaped as standard, but we'd have to then introduce throttling as well. The only complaints so far are from those looking to download files in peak periods and the speeds are around 25% of line speed at the moment. On a star system, or throttling system, you'd very, very quickly find yourself throttled with daytime downloads running on the account. We A/B tested this on a group of customers - the results were that it's all good and well getting some downloads at full speed in peak, but if it means sacrificing speeds for a large chunk of a month thereafter it's simply not worth it. And we agree. A premium home uncapped account should always stream perfectly, be massively prioritised for gaming and never shape this traffic, should allow for quality VOIP connectivity, should not be throttled, should only shape download protocols and release this when capacity becomes available. If downloads at line speed are required during peak times then standard home uncapped accounts are typically not favourable, unless you are prepared to put up with the download being shaped. We ran uncapped unshaped for many months and we seem to have created this expectation moving forward. It's no longer viewed as a value add we provided but rather something we've taken away instead.

As also mentioned, we will be introducing new products for customers who wish to have their peak downloads unshaped, and have introduced the first of these already with our capped range which is the cheapest of its kind in the market. But in terms of network performance, expect 20% to 25% download speeds in peak times, and when capacity spares up it will boost the speeds as well, which is a bonus. But getting faster than that requires as to start running all accounts at a loss.
 
Lord Nikon6 said:
25% of line speed is little...dangerously little

By little I mean little speed, a lot of shaping...
Click to expand...

So let me illustrate a bit here. If IPC costs Rx000 per Mbps (including internet breakout), and we want to run streaming, gaming, VOIP and downloads as unshaped, or actually let's say 50% of line speed for downloads in peak and increase this from 5pm and weekends, a 4Mbps account on 10:1 contention would cost 70% more than what it does now. This is simply the reality. Yes, 25% of line speed on a download seems slow, but in reality what ISP offers this or better? And if they do, what are the costs? And what limitations are imposed there as well? No ISP has a magic IPC discounter, and we cannot connect to you without it, unless we provision a non-Telkom fibre or wireless connection.

We could always revert back to unshaped then shaped, but once shaped your downloads will be all but non-existent. The economics remain the same, so there must be compromise. In essence all ISPs face the same cost constraints (and we differentiate on quality of network, value added services, and quality of support, as well as product range) A few years ago one ISP in particular started this bloody ridiculous race to the bottom on pricing. We now sit at a price-point that was achieved not organically but by the market in general being forced to reduce its value to the end user rather than better it. Hence why ISPs began implementing heavy shaping on downloads (6.25% on one, 5% on another) throttling (after less than 100GB of usage), and a combination of the two as well. In our research only 5% of our customer base would pay more for a better quality account, so where does one innovate? For the 5% or the 95%? Which will give you a better ROI?

These days we also see a massive demand for streaming services (it accounts for around 75% of our total traffic and is increasing every day). So for downloaders the solution is to schedule downloads - again, it's a reality we're faced with. No doubt the next round of IPC cuts will result in cries for discounts rather than better value at the same price-points. The point when we designed our product range was to reduce margins to offer better value, the best support, and on a quality network, with no throttling, no star ratings, and at sustainable price-points. We've certainly done this, and the only complaints we actually have are from a very small handful of customers who need to download closer to line speed in peak times. And that's understandable, but in reality, not what a home uncapped account is designed for typically - there are better products, better suited for this usage requirement. I've spent many a day and night chatting to customers directly about this, and have even customised some packages for customers with these sorts of needs (a few on this forum will attest to that). It's simply the right way to ensure that you have the right account for your needs, but by and large, 95% of home uncapped users don't need line speed downloads during peak, and/or understand that shaping will be applied. Alternatively, a higher priced product with better or even tailored shaping is more suitable.
 
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/i would love to see a documentary on how Crystal Web came to be :D.../i would pledge 100GB towards this happening.

Thanks for all this info, paints a picture we would otherwise never be able to see clearly with other iSPs.

Do you guys have any info for those currently on the 100GB promo accounts?
 
Yuu said:
Do you guys have any info for those currently on the 100GB promo accounts?
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Yes, the new capped data pricing is available on the website now with the associated pricing and features. Summer Promo customers will be moved to the most appropriate package at the end of March 2015, with sufficient notice sent as well.
 
Crystal Web said:
Yes, the new capped data pricing is available on the website now with the associated pricing and features. Summer Promo customers will be moved to the most appropriate package at the end of March 2015, with sufficient notice sent as well.
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Thanks :).
 
Yuu said:
/i would love to see a documentary on how Crystal Web came to be :D.../i would pledge 100GB towards this happening.
Click to expand...

Think "Pulp Fiction" meets "The Bridge on the River Kwai"...:D
 
Crystal Web said:
Yes, the new capped data pricing is available on the website now with the associated pricing and features. Summer Promo customers will be moved to the most appropriate package at the end of March 2015, with sufficient notice sent as well.
Click to expand...

It's confusing. In the list for 120GB capped it says:

cw.jpg

"Free data from midnight to 7am" and then "480GB for all midnight to 6am data."

So which is it?
 
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